July 2018 Update

Here's the place to talk about the features you would like to see in a sequel to KotC.

Re: July 2018 Update

Postby itsdat » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:17 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:Point taken about the isometric graphics and Android version. Maybe the main stretch goals should just be the creation of more adventure modules. I envision that the normal KS will cover a campaign comprising three modules.

I agree! :) The main stretch goals should be about enhanching the game somehow, like -what you've mentioned- adding new adventure modules/items/spells/abilities/races etc. IE. adding more content!

BlueSalamander wrote:So, to summarise, it's mainly a balance thing. The game is a lot more fun with a summoning limit.
..
To make these encounters a bit more interesting, we can have the Master Summoner or Master Necromancer bring in reinforcements during combat. That process would be controlled by scripts, and it would not be subject to any limitation.

Will it be hard to create a script like that for an ordinary modder? Can't you add an editor option for this? [Max number of controlled creatures]
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Re: July 2018 Update

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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby BlueSalamander » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:53 am

Atoch wrote:Do you imagine something like an internal "monster-compendium", which will be updated by killing enough monster of the same kind (similar to the one in "Pillars of Eternity"?)? - Yes, that would be nice.
On the Monster Compendium, I think it's better to not worry about something like that and instead use the time to create more modules. KotC 2 has a design philosophy of monster stat transparency, so there is no need to update an information page about each particular monster. Plus, I envision a multitude of monsters, so creating a compendium is not practical.

When you said 'that would be nice', did you mean the additional set of monster graphics featuring each monster's whole body? Do you think it's okay if the monster's whole body remains within a token shape, or should the edges be transparent?

Atoch wrote:the new class "Summoner" (as a low BAB druidic subclass) (thanks to itsdat for the inspiration)
Thank you, that's a very interesting suggestion and it seems appropriate as a stretch goal.

I could not help but create a preliminary design for the Summoner class.

In addition to a number of traditional offensive and defensive Wizard spells, the Summoner has access to two main lines of spells: Summon Monster and Permanent Summon. Summon Monster spells are cast by the Summoner in combat with a move action, just like a Druid. Permanent Summon spells are cast by the Summoner out of combat and they require a substantial experience-point expenditure by the Summoner. All permanent summons will occupy a space of one square, allowing them to become full Party Members. Once in the party, active permanent summons gain experience points and levels just like any other player character.

The spells may be the following:
Level 1 - Summon Orc Barbarian (CR 1), Permanent Summon Elemental Warrior (select Fire, Air, Water or Earth Elemental)
Level 2 - Summon Gelatinous Cube (CR 3), Permanent Summon Slime
Level 3 - Summon Troll (CR 5), Permanent Summon Half-Ogre Champion
Level 4 - Summon Giant Frog (CR 6), Permanent Summon Green Hag Wizard
Level 5 - Summon Large Dragon (CR 8), Permanent Summon Babau Warrior
Level 6 - Summon Noble Salamander (CR 10), Permanent Summon Chain Devil Death Knight
Level 7 - Summon Huge Dragon (CR 12), Permanent Summon Stone Golem Warrior
Level 8 - Summon Horned Devil (CR 15), Permanent Summon Snakeman Gladiator
Level 9 - Summon Gargantuan Dragon (CR 18), Permanent Summon Tentacled Horror

[Edits: changed Level-2 Summon Gnoll Barbarian into Summon Gelatinous Cube and changed Level-1 Summon Orc Warrior into Summon Orc Barbarian]

Atoch wrote:epic-level feats
Okay but what would they do? I guess you could use epic feats to increase by one point one of your ability scores, your Armour Class or your Attack Roll.

Atoch wrote:- improved camping?
Do you mean this: <<You can cook various dishes in the camp from the components you gathered or got from your hunter.>>? I think I would much rather use the time to make modules.

Atoch wrote:- bathing pics of the elven-princess (of course quest-related!)
Your wish is my command! :lol:

itsdat wrote:The main stretch goals should be about enhanching the game somehow, like -what you've mentioned- adding new adventure modules/items/spells/abilities/races etc. IE. adding more content!
Yup. It's all part of creating a new module, as I expect that each new module will bring new background images, new artifact or non-artifact magic items, new monsters possibly with new abilities, possibly new spells and possibly new races.

itsdat wrote:[bringing reinforcements] Will it be hard to create a script like that for an ordinary modder?
I expect that it will be very easy to create a script like that. Yes, I could create an editor option for the maximum number of controlled creatures but I have many other things to do that I think are more important.

Have a great time everyone!
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby itsdat » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:08 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:I could not help but create a preliminary design for the Summoner class.

In addition to a number of traditional offensive and defensive Wizard spells, the Summoner has access to two main lines of spells: Summon Monster and Permanent Summon. Summon Monster spells are cast by the Summoner in combat with a move action, just like a Druid. Permanent Summon spells are cast by the Summoner out of combat and they require a substantial experience-point expenditure by the Summoner. All permanent summons will occupy a space of one square, allowing them to become full Party Members. Once in the party, active permanent summons gain experience points and levels just like any other player character.

The spells may be the following:
Level 1 - Summon Orc Barbarian (CR 1), Permanent Summon Elemental Warrior (select Fire, Air, Water or Earth Elemental)
Level 2 - Summon Gelatinous Cube (CR 3), Permanent Summon Slime
Level 3 - Summon Troll (CR 5), Permanent Summon Half-Ogre Champion
Level 4 - Summon Giant Frog (CR 6), Permanent Summon Green Hag Wizard
Level 5 - Summon Large Dragon (CR 8), Permanent Summon Babau Warrior
Level 6 - Summon Noble Salamander (CR 10), Permanent Summon Chain Devil Death Knight
Level 7 - Summon Huge Dragon (CR 12), Permanent Summon Stone Golem Warrior
Level 8 - Summon Horned Devil (CR 15), Permanent Summon Snakeman Gladiator
Level 9 - Summon Gargantuan Dragon (CR 18), Permanent Summon Tentacled Horror

[Edits: changed Level-2 Summon Gnoll Barbarian into Summon Gelatinous Cube and changed Level-1 Summon Orc Warrior into Summon Orc Barbarian]
Have a great time everyone!

This sounds awesome for a stretch goal! :) 2 questions. Will we be able to equip the permanent summons with items [at least the humanoids]? Will they get special abilities etc. at level up?

BlueSalamander wrote:
itsdat wrote:[bringing reinforcements] Will it be hard to create a script like that for an ordinary modder?
I expect that it will be very easy to create a script like that. Yes, I could create an editor option for the maximum number of controlled creatures but I have many other things to do that I think are more important.

Oh well, maybe after the v1.0 release you can add stuff like these. :)

PS.
Thanks for all the answers! Have a great weekend!
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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby Atoch » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:54 pm

Your phrase "additional set of monster graphics featuring each monster's whole body" just made me remember an old DOS-game: "Fantasy General" (some screenshots). There you could 'inspect' any unit or monster on the battlefield, on an extra screen, with a nice, atmospheric illustration (of the whole body), some basic stats, current status-effects, etc.. 'That would be nice.'
But you obviously mean something different. I'm just not sure I understand, what you envision.
The token-design should have the advantage, that the user can identify very fast, at first glance, what is what and who is who. Therefore, the token should be unique and distinct from each other. They should be easily distinguishable.
If every monster-token displays the whole monster-body - I fear, that would be rather hard for my old eyes...
"or should the edges be transparent" - Do you mean, that some limbs of the monster could be outside of the (transparent) circle of the token? Really?- That, I imagine, would not look good.

To your "Summoner-class":
I have a few questions and problems with it.
First: Why the wizard spell-list?. Wizard spells are not only powerful, they are very versatile too. Why would you give a specialist like the Summoner such a wide and deep spell-list?
You did not mention any restrictions on the number of active Permanent Summons, instead you write in plural. Does Permanent Summons gain class-levels or are there specific monster progression tables? Does a fresh Permanent Summon scale with your caster-level? Can it be equipped with magic items (as asked by itsdat)? Can an experienced Permanent Summon be revived with its experience points saved? Will the Permanent Summons stay, if the summoner dies?
Depending on the answers, the summoner can become very overpowered - at least in isolated battles.
In the long run the Permanent Summons would siphon off the experience points of the party, slowing the progression of all other party members - and the Permanent Summons surely should not have the same potential as regular party members. Or the player doesn't mind the extra grinding for experience points and the endgame becomes a walk in the park with several additional max-leveled party members.
One could say, the in-game cost for the permanent summons can be paid by a real world currency: grinding time
It doesn't seem easy to make the right balance-adjustments.

But, I admit, I'm biased.
Because I also could not help but create a preliminary design for a Summoner class:
- Low BAB, D6 Hit die, druidic spell-list (without "Heal" and "Raise Dead"), (highest spell-level: 7 ?)
- 4times automatic feats, which augment the summoned monsters (+1 Str, +1 Con and +1 Dex or something)
- at first level: free feat "Master Summoner" which allows to preserve 2 existing summonses at the same time
- access to the feat "Summoned Casting" which allows the Summoner to cast spells with the summoned monster as medium. Both, summoner and summoned monster, have to invest the casting time. The spell origins at the standpoint of the summoned monster, as if the spell had been cast by the monster.
- three new "standing" summon-spells, with the duration "until rest", spell-casting time: 2 (or 3) full round actions; only 1 "standing" summoned monster at the same time
- 1. Spell-level: Ghost Spirit: Low BAB, touch attack, low cold damage, can make itself invisible at a full-round action, physical resistance; on higher caster levels it gains some attribute-damage touch-attacks (with save possible to negate it)
- 4. Spell-level: Fire-Salamander Archer: Medium BAB, long range; on higher caster levels it gains archery feats and gets equipped with a magic bow. (gold cost!)
- 7. Spell-level: Golem-Protector: Medium BAB, damage resistance, elemental resistance (exception: cold damage (?)), unarmed (with shield?), grapple feats! On higher caster levels it gains minor regeneration.(gold cost!)

New other, normal summon-spells: as many as you wish!

This Summoner seems quite powerful to me, but on the other hand, the Summoner himself is very fragile and easy prey for mage-killers like monks or rouges...

epic feats:
I'm not D&D geek enough. But there are many sites which can give inspiration (like: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicFeats.htm).
The point is, if one wants to create a very high-level module, it should include something new, not just the same with higher numbers. Therefore every class should have access to some class-specific epic feats for a real "epic-module". But that seems to be to time consuming to make just for a stretch goal.

Improved camping:
I'm curious, how it will play out in Kingmaker. But I guess, it is not suitable for your game.
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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby itsdat » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:59 pm

Atoch wrote:
In the long run the Permanent Summons would siphon off the experience points of the party, slowing the progression of all other party members - and the Permanent Summons surely should not have the same potential as regular party members. Or the player doesn't mind the extra grinding for experience points and the endgame becomes a walk in the park with several additional max-leveled party members.
One could say, the in-game cost for the permanent summons can be paid by a real world currency: grinding time
It doesn't seem easy to make the right balance-adjustments.


I think that it can be perfectly balanced...don't forget that we can also recruit NPCs. Basically permanent summons should act like an "exotic" NPC after summoned. [They will use an "active party member" slot, just like any other NPCs. You can have 6 party members + 2 NPCs/permanent summons in this case.]
Like I've said, imo this is an awesome idea for a stretch goal. Diverse gameplay mechanics should be #1 priority in a game like this. :)
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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby Atoch » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:11 pm

Hm, yes - but if Permanent Summons are just exotic replacements of other NPCs, and if they don't increase the available slots for NPCs, isn't that a bit underwhelming for a core feature of the summoner class? The balancing would indeed become relatively easy, because they don't add substantial new manpower to the party!
They would still be exotic and have, probably, unique abilities, but ... yeah, it's o.k.
(But why bound exotic NPCs with unique abilities to the summoner-class? They could be a stretch goal on their own right!)
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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby itsdat » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:53 pm

Atoch wrote:Hm, yes - but if Permanent Summons are just exotic replacements of other NPCs, and if they don't increase the available slots for NPCs, isn't that a bit underwhelming for a core feature of the summoner class?


Imho nope, in fact that should be the core feature of the class. Yet another stretch goal could be the undead version of it, the necromancer. :)

Atoch wrote:(But why bound exotic NPCs with unique abilities to the summoner-class? They could be a stretch goal on their own right!)


What do you mean exactly?
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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby Atoch » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:22 pm

Atoch wrote:
(But why bound exotic NPCs with unique abilities to the summoner-class? They could be a stretch goal on their own right!)



What do you mean exactly?

Just ignore it. It was only an incomplete thought and it is not worth to elaborate it.
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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby BlueSalamander » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:17 am

itsdat wrote:[Summoner class] This sounds awesome for a stretch goal!
Okay, I'm planning to have it as a stretch goal. Pretty cool concept, but not very easy to implement, so it's good as a high stretch goal.

itsdat wrote:[maximum number of controlled summons] Oh well, maybe after the v1.0 release you can add stuff like these.
Yes, it's possible. However, a better idea may be to create a new feat called Mass Summoning, with Augment Summoning and Summoning Mastery as prerequisites. A character with the feat Mass Summoning can have two summoned creatures at the same time.

itsdat wrote:Will we be able to equip the permanent summons with items [at least the humanoids]? Will they get special abilities etc. at level up?
Permanent summons will be full Party Members, so you can equip them just like you would equip any other member of the party. You are right that creatures like the Slime and Tentacled Horror should not have equipped items. Permanent summons get feats at level up just like any other party member. Their existing special abilities may also be improved. Thinking about special abilities, maybe I'll give four arms (or six) to the Stone Golem or Chain Devil.

Atoch wrote:you could 'inspect' any unit or monster on the battlefield, on an extra screen, with a nice, atmospheric illustration (of the whole body), some basic stats, current status-effects, etc.. 'That would be nice.'
Oh, I understand now. As in KotC 1, every creature in KotC 2 has a character sheet that you can inspect, providing complete information on stats and status effects.

Thank you for the cool link. By transparent edges, I mean something like in this Fantasy General screenshot.

If the edges are transparent, I would not display the rotating golden selection circle. But it's easier all-around for me if the edges are not transparent, and all creatures remain within a circle token. Whole-body monster tokens would still be easily distinguishable, but their size would have to fit within the token. I don't care much about adding whole-body tokens, I'm just trying to see if you guys would like it. In fact, I would prefer to focus on module creation than on additional monster graphics.

Atoch wrote:Why the wizard spell-list? Wizard spells are not only powerful, they are very versatile too. Why would you give a specialist like the Summoner such a wide and deep spell-list?
I don't mean the whole Wizard spell list. The Summoner will have his own spell list. He will have access to a limited number of Wizard spells, such as Dispel Magic, Gust of Wind or Burning Hands. Maybe he will be able to cast Fireball, but at a higher spell level than the Wizard. He will have the same Hit Die as the Wizard (D6) and a low base attack bonus.

Atoch wrote:You did not mention any restrictions on the number of active Permanent Summons, instead you write in plural. Does Permanent Summons gain class-levels or are there specific monster progression tables? Does a fresh Permanent Summon scale with your caster-level? Can it be equipped with magic items (as asked by itsdat)? Can an experienced Permanent Summon be revived with its experience points saved? Will the Permanent Summons stay, if the summoner dies?
They are party members, so the limit on the number of active party members includes permanent summons. Permanent summons gain levels according to their class. Warrior is a class. Monsters without a named character class actually have a class that depends on the monster's type. For example, ooze is a class.

Monster classes and the Warrior class are not as good as the player's character classes. In the interest of balance, a permanent summon with significant special abilities should not have a character class, or, it could have a character-class level that is lower than that of the Summoner and other party members.

For example, look at the Green Hag. I will give it the Wizard class, but the Summoner will be a Level-7 Summoner while the Hag may be a Level-3 or Level-5 Wizard, in order to compensate for the fact that its Hit Points will be much higher than those of the party's existing Wizard, Sorcerer, Psionicist or Warlock. The Hag will gain experience points just like any other party member and it will level up around the same time that other party members level up.

A permanent summon can be revived just like any other party member and with the same spells, Raise Dead and True Resurrection. Permanent summons stay with the party if the summoner dies. No-one really dies in D&D, since anyone can be revived with Raise Dead.

Atoch wrote:In the long run the Permanent Summons would siphon off the experience points of the party, slowing the progression of all other party members - and the Permanent Summons surely should not have the same potential as regular party members.
My idea is that they would bring advantages and disadvantages to the party just like any other party member. A Hag Wizard would have just as much potential as any other Wizard, but it would reach Wizard level 20 around the same time that a Human Wizard would reach Wizard level 22 or 24. I think that the Summoner class is all about giving more choice to the player in terms of party composition. And yes, it's also about giving the player access to very exotic creatures that otherwise would be unlikely to join the party in normal circumstances.

Atoch wrote:One could say, the in-game cost for the permanent summons can be paid by a real world currency: grinding time
There will not be any grinding in KotC 2, or at least, I will try my best to avoid it. I would like all encounters to be interesting and challenging, unlike many JRPGs that require you to fight the same couple of bandits over and over for no reason except grinding.

Atoch wrote:at first level: free feat "Master Summoner" which allows to preserve 2 existing summonses at the same time
Yup, we have the same idea here. I'll just call it Mass Summoning to differentiate it from the feat Summoning Mastery.

Atoch wrote:[Epic feats] if one wants to create a very high-level module, it should include something new
I thought about it a bit more, and I now have a list of 18 possible epic feats, which are okay for a low stretch goal. They are easy-to-implement numerical-bonus feats, as are many of the epic feats in the link that you provided. One thing about epic feats, though: aside from a few exceptions, I would not want the player to feel that epic feats are so good that only epic feats should be selected from level 21.

Atoch wrote:[improved camping] I'm curious, how it will play out in Kingmaker.
So am I. I'm a bit sceptical about that.

itsdat wrote:I think that it can be perfectly balanced...don't forget that we can also recruit NPCs. Basically permanent summons should act like an "exotic" NPC after summoned. [They will use an "active party member" slot, just like any other NPCs. You can have 6 party members + 2 NPCs/permanent summons in this case.]
Exactly, that's the idea.

Atoch wrote:isn't that a bit underwhelming for a core feature of the summoner class?
The main idea with permanent summons is not to increase the party's power level above the power level of a party that would comprise characters of different classes, though this may happen. It's just a different way of creating your party, thus a different way of playing the same game. Maybe you started the game only with a Summoner and a Sorcerer, and then you complement your party with formerly-NPC companions and permanent summons. Also, I don't think that any Summoner class with the ability to summon Dragons would be underwhelming. :)

itsdat wrote:Yet another stretch goal could be the undead version of it, the necromancer.
Yes, that is a possibility. Either a Necromancer class based on the same idea as the Summoner, or just a new line of Undead summoning spells for Black Wizards attuned to Nocturnis. The Wizard already has a Summon Skeleton spell. The new spells could include Summon Skeletal Warrior, Summon Giant Skeleton, Summon Zombie, Summon Ghoul, Summon Ghast, Summon Wight, Summon Wraith, Summon Mummy, Summon Greater Mummy, Summon Vampire, Summon Vampire Lord, Summon Spectre, Summon Ghost Warrior, Summon Shadow, Summon Greater Shadow, Summon Banshee, Summon Lich, Summon Ghost Dragon.

Atoch wrote:why bound exotic NPCs with unique abilities to the summoner-class? They could be a stretch goal on their own right!
Exotic NPCs need not be limited to the Summoner class. For example, a Golem, Demon or intelligent ooze may well join the party willingly, in the right circumstances. I guess, exotic NPCs that may join the party (exotic recruitable NPCs) could also be a stretch goal. Even if it's not a stretch goal, it's something that I consider to be part of module and quest creation.

Thank you very much for all the feedback and all the interesting ideas! Feel free to post some more! :)
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Re: July 2018 Update

Postby Atoch » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:33 am

Your description of the summoner-class reminds me more and more of the mentioned possible stretch goal "playable monster races". Just in a complicated way.



"Oh, I understand now. As in KotC 1, every creature in KotC 2 has a character sheet that you can inspect, providing complete information on stats and status effects. "


Will there be extra illustrations of the monsters in these character sheets, or just the tokens?
From my perspective, there is no point in "whole-body tokens" on the maps. But if the creature character sheets have a nice drawing of the monster, I wouldn't complain! You shouldn't underestimate the plus on immersion, that a well done illustration can create! (And you would have some nice screenshots for steam, etc.)

I like, that the party-members are displayed just as heads on a tablet... erh, I mean, heads in a circle. But with transparent edges... wouldn't it look rather silly? I'm not sure.

On the other hand, terrain has gameplay implications and transparent edges could make it easier to identify the underlying terrain under the tokens.
Perhaps you can make some screens to compare them?
(In the old ssi hex-games, like Fantasy General, there was a button to 'hide' the units on the map in order to see the underlying terrain.)

While asking for some screens, I may just add another request for your august-update: There is a "High Ground" on your list of terrain effects. The Drake also has the skill: 'glide'. I'm curious, how you make 'high grounds' visible in the top-down view.
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