RPGCodex very happy

by **Mefi** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:10 am

Kudos.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

by **Lurking Grue** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:57 pm

Well, that's something! I'd never believed to see a day when codexers (at least the majority of 'em) are happy with a new cRPG.

What next, hell freezing over, flying pigs, honest politicians?!

by **Gribble** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:18 pm

That's what happens when you put effort into gameplay rather than graphics, and when you don't dumb down gameplay and lower the difficulty until the lowest common denominator is the only group appeased.

EDIT: Now, I will say this about challenge. I just fought my way to the second floor of the demo dungeon. There are two stairways leading down. Without spoiling much, regardless of which stairwell I take, I find myself instantly in combat. Either way I go, I'm surrounded before I have a turn, and my party members are severely injured if not outright killed before I have any control.

While I'm all for challenge, that's going a bit far. Now it's less about strategy and thinking and more about luck. Will that troll have enough bad attack rolls that my wizard lives long enough to get off a web spell? Will my cleric have a chance to summon a fire elemental before the enemy wizard casts silence? In fact, a couple times I've had my entire party wiped during this encounter.

EDIT II: Okay... now I'm starting to question the praise I just gave. I've been trying to survive the initial encounters on the second level for an hour now. My entire party just wiped before I ever got a turn. If this is indicative of the rest of the game I'm not sure I'm interested in shelling out $25. Am I missing something here? Am I doing something wrong? Or is the demo over for me? I don't see any way to progress without simply loading again and again and again until the stars align and the enemies miss while I land crits.

That is a big problem, and something that needs to be addressed if there is a sequel.

by **BlueSalamander** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:44 pm

Gribble: There is an easy way and a hard way to tackle the troll+wizard battle. It depends on how you dealt with the lone sentinel in the room just before. Did you allow him to sound the alarm?

The other battle that is hard (on purpose) is the one with the undead after the fall - but it's not actually necessary to complete the demo.

Also, the difficulty of these battles greatly depends on what your level is when you attempt them. Plus there's a setting for "maximum HP on level up" to make things easier.

by **Gribble** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:49 pm

I killed the guard before he could sound the alarm.

I'm still trying to get through that troll fight. I've managed to kill two of the trolls, but I just can't get the shaman. Like I said, this battle is more about luck than it is skill and that's not a good thing. I love a good fight, but more often than not the battle is all ready over before I ever make a move.

I think you should retool the demo. The first ten minutes in I was absolutely set on buying the game. Now I'm having doubts. That's not good. I realize the full game will probably offer more options. For example, I could always leave that dungeon and fight somewhere else, only to return with better gear and skills. I can't do that with the demo, though, and it leaves me frustrated. I realize I don't need to finish it, but I want to. And I sure don't see a way to manage that unless I spend another two hours dying and reloading until I finally get a first turn that doesn't see me with a dead wizard, injured knight, and silenced cleric.

I'm not really complaining about the undead battle. That's fine. It's a trap. However, I fought my way to this other stairwell. I worked for it. My reward is an almost equally impossible fight. You know what would make the difference? If got the first turn instead of the trolls. Shouldn't they be at ease, considering all their buddies upstairs, and considering no alarm was sounded? That would turn the fight from luck-based into a skill-based challenge.

by **BlueSalamander** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:05 pm

Right, maybe someone else will chime in and explain a good tactic for the fight with the Troll Shaman and the two other trolls (At first I thought you were talking about the fight with Sozarus).

Perhaps it's just a matter of choosing better feats for your characters.

All I can say is you will be more satisfied after beating a hard fight than after beating an easy fight. At least that's how it feels for me.

by **endtime** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:09 pm

The game is hard indeed, but that is good. Modern games are way too easy and beating a fight you previously thought impossible is one of those things that make games worth playing.

If I could make a couple of technical suggestions, would it be possible to raise the resolution a bit and maybe add an alternative font? The default one is rather hard on the eyes.

by **Gribble** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:15 pm

I agree with this. My problem is thus: I have fought everything there is to fight, I have all the gear I can get. There are two paths before me. One plunges me into a pit crawling with undead. It's a trap. I accept that it's incredibly difficult.

The other leads me into a cave filled with trolls who kill my wizard, silence my cleric, and severely wound my warrior all before I ever have a turn.

There is no strategic way to win that fight. The only way to win is to have a favorable outcome after the trolls' first turn. In order to achieve that there is one thing I can do: go down the stairs, reload, go down the stairs, reload, go down the stairs, reload, go down the stairs, reload--until my wizard survives and is not silenced or some other fluke allows me to win. There is absolutely no strategy involved.

Winning a challenging fight is indeed a reward. That isn't a challenging fight, however. It's just plain unfair. The outcome of the fight is determined before I ever enter any input. I win or lose based on how much damage the trolls inflict that first turn, and whether or not my group is silenced. More than once my entire party has been wiped all before I get a turn. As I said, in the full game I could probably go grind a level or two and come back. That isn't an option in the demo, however, and if the demo contains such a glaring fault, how many such faults does the full game contain?

Please, if you haven't reached this encounter wait until you have before defending the difficulty. And if you have reached that encounter please share with us how you won the fight short of getting lucky.

Nobody loves a challenge more than I. This isn't a challenge. This is a frustrating oversight that forces me to rely entirely on luck.

by **endtime** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:39 pm

D&D is a game of chance and the outcome of practically every action is governed by a die roll. There will always be a huge element of luck in every fight. Not having seen the troll fight yet I don't know just how unfair it is, but It must be doable if it even made it through playtesting. After getting soundly beaten by Sozarus' mob a few times I also thought that the fight was unbeatable, but in the end it takes (a lot of) perseverance.

Once again I'll reiterate - I'll always prefer a challenge that's close to impossible than a lack of challenge. I remember the final fight in Pools of Darkness - success depended to a large extent on luck while rolling dice and it had that "this is impossible" feel to it, but when you finally beat it with your last fighter standing with a sliver of health, that feeling of exhilaration was worth all the frustration.

by **BlueSalamander** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:00 pm

Gribble, a few considerations:
- Did you use max HP when levelling?
- Does anyone in your party has Improved Initiative (may allow your characters to act first)
- Does your wizard or cleric have Metamagic Casting: Silent? (allows you to cast when silenced)
- Have you tried Glitterdust on the troll fighters?
- Trolls are weak against fire damage.
- Do you use flanking with your fighters?