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I've been kinda skimming the threads to see if this would be a buy for me. Can someone who's played through quite a bit of the game, judge it on it's non-combat gameplay? Free-form exploration is my favorite type of crpg play and I'm wondering how much, if any, of that is available in the game. So far most comparisons have chosen ToEE as the game this most closely resembles and ToEE was a terrible game. It was a great D&D combat simulator, but a terrible crpg. So tell me, what does this game offer outside of combat?

Thanks!

If ToEE was a great combat simulator, this game is a super great, tremendous, terrific combat simulator.
Non-combat gameplay is certainly not one of its strengths. Neither is "freeform exploration". If you think the Elder Scrolls games when you mention freeform exploration - no it has nothing of that - thanks God. But if you don't play it because of that - your loss, because it is incredible fun.
Play the demo to find out whether it's fun for you too.

crpgnut wrote:ToEE was a terrible game. It was a great D&D combat simulator, but a terrible crpg.

You might still like KotC, but I think it's safe to say that this game will appeal primarily to people who thought TOEE was a great (or at least good) CRPG precisely because it was a great D&D simulator. At the very least, your definition of "CRPG" seems very different from mine...

I agree with what the others have said.

In my opinion, CRPGs have always excelled at being "combat simulators" and usually failed at being storytellers. But that's ok, to me, because I like tactical combat and improving stats and getting better loot. If I want a good story, I'll read a book. Interestingly enough, D&D started as offshoots of people playing tactical wargames, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. TOEE had it's problems, but I thought it was the best D&D-based CRPG I've played (until a couple days ago...) precisely because of it's faithful representation of solid tactical, turn based fantasy combat rules.

I'll disagree about ToEE being a good D&D simulator, it's not. It's a good D&D combat simulator. D&D LONG ago moved away from its wargame roots, if not, nobody would even know what D&D was. The best crpgs all have something other than combat to hang their hat on, that's what I'm looking for out of this game. There might be 5000 people in the world who care about the 5-foot step. I'm just kinda wondering if there's something for the rest of the planet to get excited about. It could be that there isn't. Here are some things that I'm hoping the game might also have:

Lots of secret doors, hidden valleys, hard to spot loot, etc.
A good alchemy system
many opportunities to craft
riddles, puzzles, codes to break, etc.
lock-picking, breaking down doors, alternative means of entry, teleporters, etc.
horses, ships, caravans
trading, bartering, bribing, pickpocketing
flying, levitation, climbing, digging, camping, hunting, etc

Do you see how limiting a game is that focuses mostly on combat? A good game needs fun stuff to do outside of fighting. I'm not saying this game doesn't have some of the above stuff. In fact, I'm really hoping that is does.

crpgnut wrote:I'll disagree about ToEE being a good D&D simulator, it's not. It's a good D&D combat simulator. D&D LONG ago moved away from its wargame roots, if not, nobody would even know what D&D was. The best crpgs all have something other than combat to hang their hat on, that's what I'm looking for out of this game. There might be 5000 people in the world who care about the 5-foot step. I'm just kinda wondering if there's something for the rest of the planet to get excited about. It could be that there isn't. Here are some things that I'm hoping the game might also have:

Lots of secret doors, hidden valleys, hard to spot loot, etc.
A good alchemy system
many opportunities to craft
riddles, puzzles, codes to break, etc.
lock-picking, breaking down doors, alternative means of entry, teleporters, etc.
horses, ships, caravans
trading, bartering, bribing, pickpocketing
flying, levitation, climbing, digging, camping, hunting, etc

Do you see how limiting a game is that focuses mostly on combat? A good game needs fun stuff to do outside of fighting. I'm not saying this game doesn't have some of the above stuff. In fact, I'm really hoping that is does.

In order:

Yes, no, sort of
No potions at all
Yes. Much, if not all, of your gear will come from crafting.
Not really, not really, not really
No, not really, sort of, no. (You can, however, listen to what's going on on the other side of a door.)
No, no, no
Yes, clarify, on occasion (If I recall correctly), no
No, no, no, no, no, no

The heart of the game is the combat and encounter design. Everything else just acts in a supporting role if it's even present at all. This is not to say that every encounter boils down to you massacring everything in sight, as you're frequently presented with dialogue options before an encounter that can dramatically change the situation.

And while it may be limiting to focus solely on combat, what's the main thing in an rpg you typically end up doing? Sure, there are a few counterexamples (Like, say, PS:T), but most games, especially recent releases, involve a massive amount of combat. In that vein, a poorly designed combat system can cripple any game, regardless of it's strengths (PS:T comes close to this, and that game rarely focuses on combat), while a well done combat system can exist in a bit of a vacuum where the story is just used in a supporting role.

Really though, if you try the demo you'll quickly see if you like it or not.

I said TOEE was a good D&D CRPG, and that CRPGs have always excelled at being combat simulators. TOEE is a good D&D combat simulator, much better than any of the quasi-real time infinity engine or NWN 1 or 2 engines. I fail to see how D&D LONG ago moved away from its wargame roots, when in fact 3rd edition brought back the emphasis on tile-based tactical combat, and 4th edition intensified the tactical combat portions even more with entire classes devoted to shifting allies and enemies around the board square by square. When you bring the rules to an un-refereed system, like a single player CRPG, you're mostly just left with the combat system.

The rest of the planet has Oblivion, et al to wander around boring, same-looking dungeons using a crappy combat engine and poor scaling rules. For those who enjoy tactical turn based combat, Knights of the Chalice is one of the best I've played. Of the things you're looking for, the only one it has is "many opportunities to craft". From your list it looks like you're looking for Ultima IV, VI, VII, or UO, or maybe some other MMO.

No, I don't see how focusing on combat limits a game, in fact I can think of many, many examples to contradict this: Mount and Blade, Darklands, Heroes of Might and Magic, Sword of Aragon, Fantasy General, XCom, Master of Magic, Diablo 1&2, etc. Some people, brace yourself, like tactical combat. That's all I want. I play D&D for the combat. Does that make me weird? I dunno, and I don't care. That's what D&D was created for.

Try the demo, maybe? That would probably answer all your questions.

crpgnut wrote:Do you see how limiting a game is that focuses mostly on combat? A good game needs fun stuff to do outside of fighting. I'm not saying this game doesn't have some of the above stuff. In fact, I'm really hoping that is does.

Essentially all of the stuff in the game that is technically non-combat gameplay is used to support the combat. For instance, you'll find people who you can choose to trust or distrust, which will affect encounters, you'll be able to listen at a doorway before opening the door, allowing you to navigate the dungeon well, you'll craft weapons and armor that best suit the enemies you face and their weaknesses, etc. A lot of it comes down to the dungeon design -- where are the secret doors, who can you trust, will you use a special alternative to combat to dispatch a particular monster, etc.?

If you play the demo and you're still undecided, you might try to find Dark Sun: Shattered Lands as a point of comparison. Admittedly Dark Sun had a more interesting game world, but it shares many elements in common with KotC. For instance the interaction with the dungeons (secret doors, people in the dungeons and choices involving them, etc.) is one example of the design similarity.

Maybe if you mention some particular CRPGs that you like and thought had the elements you like, you can get pointed in the right direction. For instance, if the Elder Scrolls games are the kind of things you're looking for, then I don't know if this is for you since it's fairly dissimilar. Or if you're looking for something like Fallout or Arcanum, you might try Age of Decadence when it comes out. Apart from that, the demo ought to give you a decent idea of what you're in for with the full game.

Yeah...I'd just say try the demo and read the FAQ on the mainsite. Between the two of them, you should know full well if this is to your tastes or not.

crpgnut wrote:There might be 5000 people in the world who care about the 5-foot step.

Duhhh, what? There are only 5000 people who've ever won a combat in ToEE or KotC? Because I need this move in just about every single combat in KotC, and the game is all about the combat.

Regarding features supported/not supported, I'm surprised to find that I really don't care that there's no rogue class, and thus no locks, secret door, traps, etc. I don't think I've ever played a CRPG where the thief is well done or fun as part of a party (they're even less fun solo, in games like NWN and Oblivion). For a game of this kind, I don't miss it at all. It was a great design decision to leave the rogue out altogether, instead of putting a bunch of arbitrary obstacles in the player's path, then including a must-have class which is good for nothing else.