Player Races

[MonkeyLancer]

Oh no? Ask any Thri-Keen how easy it is to fight with a cloak constantly getting tangled in their extra arms.

LOL! Now that you mention it that does make some sense.

Concerning boots and gloves with Thri-Keen I think of the scene when Chekov says, "When shoe fits, wear it" in Star Trek IV, but they still have wrists so bracers don't seem unreasonable to me too. I also understand that thinking of these in aesthetic rather then in ruleset terms doesn't always work either.

[BlueSalamander]

Regarding the kobold I had this one in mind, looks so cool IMO:

Concerning boots and gloves with Thri-Keen I think of the scene when Chekov says, "When shoe fits, wear it"

I think it's more something to be thought about in balance terms because the game is not logical at all; for example a half orc can wear the same armour/helmet/ring/etc as a halfling.

I hope you will still keep the Muls and Half-Elves!

Perhaps among the enemies but not as character race, they don't have enough unique features as player races. Mul could replace Half-Orc but since I'm going towards the standards races this time I guess Half-Orc is better.

The Half-Giant sounds good. Would he be able to wield an otherwise unavailable, larger category of weapons?

Yes, as a large creature it could wield large weapons. The half giant will take only 1 square of space, not 2x2.
Regarding weapon sizes, the plan is to use the same system as ToEE this time. This means no more Reduce Weapon spell. Instead, a human could wield a large longsword as a two-handed weapon, and a halfling could wield a medium short sword or dagger as a one-handed weapon. That way, human shopkeepers don't need to reserve extra space for weapons with a non-standard size. The Monkey Grip feat from Complete Warrior may have its place.

What I would like to see with varied races is different dialogue options or responses in a few situations: you can parley with a group of Orcs if you have a Half-Orc in your party, for example.

Yes, but it makes scripting harder, and it could be wasted efforts if most players choose not to play with half-orcs. I prefer having all races speak Common, and parley happens if they want to parley. Could be good though, to have a dialogue here or there that acknowledges the leader's race or class.

Dwarf - Minus 2 Wisdom rather than -2 Dexterity? Why?

Because I imagine their toughness to be associated with recklessness, contrary to half-giant and half-orcs, whose strength is associated with clumsiness, in my mind.

For Thri-Keen it makes sense to me to give the second pair of arms a penalty as they often are depicted being as being secondary to their 'main' arms.

All other arms beyond the first one would be considered secondary weapons with the normal penalty.

Thri-Keens are more tricky, but again, I would stick to the way they were used in Dark Sun

In Dark Sun, the inventory screen showed only two arm slots, which I think isn't particularly exciting.

I'd like to see the male cleric changed, the helmet looks like grey, long hair.

The sprites will be based on race rather class this time.

The first thing I thought of when I read the Tri-Kreen outline was having a Tri-Kreen warrior with the feat monkey grip and 4 two-handed weapons. After that, I thought about creating one with 4 tower shields.

I won't allow wielding more than one shield (I already disallowed this in KotC). Monkey grip is supposed to allow you to wield a large weapon as you would a medium weapon, it doesn't allow you to wield two-handed weapons as one-handed or light weapons, and it doesn't work with the off hand.

don't give dwarves a wisdom penalty. I'd love to play a dwarven cleric

-2 would just mean a bit less powerful cleric... Intelligence isn't a balancing factor and Dex penalty is already given to all who have a Str bonus.

if you allow every off-hand to benefit from the two-weapon feats, you'd have a character with 13 attacks per round. I'd say that's a bit much.

True.

is there a list somewhere out of all the Races possible based on what's part of the stock or is this the entire possible range of it to be potentially thinned out and tweaked from here?

Nothing's set in stone yet, but these sound good to me. The thri-kreen is tricky though.

[BlueSalamander]

What do you think of this idea to balance the thri-kreen:

"A Thri-Kreen has 4 arms, but each arm can only wield an Offhand 1-handed weapon. It can carry items normally. Other 1-handed weapons must be wielded in 2 hands. 2 handed weapons require all 4 hands."
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... n_solution

[waltshooter]

What do you think of this idea to balance the thri-kreen:

"A Thri-Kreen has 4 arms, but each arm can only wield an Offhand 1-handed weapon. It can carry items normally. Other 1-handed weapons must be wielded in 2 hands. 2 handed weapons require all 4 hands."

I think, if possible, SOME 2-handed weapons should only take 2 hands for the Thri-Kreen as well. Particularly, polearms and spears.

If, as MonkeyLancer suggests, a Thri-Kreen's extra arms are secondary to their main ones ... they should easily be able to wield two spears or polearms, since those are mainly stabbing (rather than hacking or slashing) weapons. Picture the spear held in the two right arms, along side the body. A Thri-Kreen would actually have better weapon control, with such weapons, than another race. They would also have better shield control, if only using one shield, for the same reason. Two sets of arms on the shield side, to control it.

However, with slashing weapons ... like greatswords and greataxes ... the Thri-Kreen would be disadvantaged by the secondary arms. The lower set of arms would tend to either get in the way, or make for a shorter "chop" (to avoid injuring yourself).

Then there's the question of bows and crossbows. Is a Thri-Kreen's secondary set of arms independent enough of the main arms, to allow accurate use of two bows simultaneously? Or strong enough to work reloading two crossbows at the same time? If so, that would bring quite a bit of "artillery" to any party. 1 Thri-Kreen = 2 Archers.

[MonkeyLancer]

I think that's great, it deals with the potential for excessive cheesiness and it fits with the attributes they've been given.

Oooo.. I would possibly add quaterstaves to the uh 2-handed Thri-Kreen specialty concept from waltshooter.

re-edit of my edit: I'm retarded and forgot about the idea of what was said about 2 handed being 4 handed for thri-kreen because otherwise there would have to be 2 slots for the equipped ranged inventory..

[waltshooter]

Maybe even link the ability to use two (spears/polearms) to the Two Weapon Fighting feat. Without that feat, they have to stay with " ... each arm can only wield an Offhand 1-handed weapon. Other 1-handed weapons must be wielded in 2 hands. 2 handed weapons require all 4 hands." But with the feat, they could dual-wield spears/polearms.

The more I think on it ... the archery concept doesn't fit. I doubt the secondary arms would have the strength to draw a bow themselves. HOWEVER, they would allow the Thri-Kreen to reload/fire a ranged weapon faster than another race. Or "sacrifice" that speed, to use a small shield in addition to ranged weapons.

Not sure about staves. The main positioning of those seem to be across the body. And they're more of a clubbing weapon, than a stabbing weapon. So their motion would tend to be more along the lines of the 2-handed swords and axes. I could be wrong, though - since I'm just going off how I see them used in movies. And we all know how realistic Hollywood is, with weapon handling.

[BlueSalamander]

I quite like the idea of 4 arms for a single two-handed weapon and 2 arms for a one-handed one. You would still be able to wield 2 shortspears (shortspear is a one-handed weapon) but the usefulness would come from allowing 4 light weapons, for example 4 kukris, or 3 light weapons and a shield. 13 attacks can be okay if they are all with low-damage weapons, and the character can't wear armor so must rely on dexterity + dodge feat + two weapon defence feats + natural armor.
The 2-handed spear could be an exception (obtained with a feat) allowing the thri-kreen to wield two. The ranged weapon slot will remain separate so no benefit to the thri-kreen there.

Here's another take on the dwarf and half-orc that avoids giving a Wisdom penalty to the dwarf:

Half-Orc: STR +2, WIS -2, CHA -2. Toughness (+3 HP only, I think the new toughness feat that gives 1 HP per level is a bit too powerful).

Dwarf: DEX -2, CON +2, CHA -2, Speed 20, +2 Dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks from large creatures or bigger.

Halfling: STR -2, DEX +2, WIS +2, Size Small (less damage from weapons, +1 size bonus to all attack rolls and to AC), Speed 20, +2 bonus to all saving throws.
Would +2 to wisdom make the halfling too good?

[waltshooter]

If a Thri-Kreen can wield 4 light weapons, or 3 light weapons + shield ... and the feat would allow them to wield two 2-handed spears: would the feat also enable them to wield one 2-handed spear + 1 light weapon + 1 shield? Or one 2-handed spear + 2 light weapons? Just wanting to make sure I'm understanding correctly.

[Darthcast]

I think the new toughness feat that gives 1 HP per level is a bit too powerful

It certainly is powerful, but I always considered the +3 HP thougness feat next to useless. I never took it. (Well, I took in KoTC, but by mistake). I would consider taking a feat that gives +0,5 HP per level or 1 HP every even level though.

Half-Orc: STR +2, WIS -2, CHA -2. Toughness

I also never liked the Half-Orc that much. The Grey Orc (in NWN2) seems to be very interesting though, because of the higher movement speed. But I guess he would be too strong unless some kind of level adjustment for mighty races was introduced.

Dwarf: DEX -2, CON +2, CHA -2, Speed 20, +2 Dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks from large creatures or bigger.

Definitely like this one more.

BTW, I felt CHA is completely useless in KoTC (1), without classes like Paladin, Sorcerer or the Turn Undead ability.

[BlueSalamander]

If a Thri-Kreen can wield 4 light weapons, or 3 light weapons + shield ... and the feat would allow them to wield two 2-handed spears: would the feat also enable them to wield one 2-handed spear + 1 light weapon + 1 shield? Or one 2-handed spear + 2 light weapons? Just wanting to make sure I'm understanding correctly.

Yes.

I felt CHA is completely useless in KoTC (1), without classes like Paladin, Sorcerer or the Turn Undead ability.

There will be paladins and turn undead, and perhaps feats or cleric domains that use the charisma modifier, so CHA should have its uses.