i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

This is the place to provide bug reports and suggestions about KotC 2 Augury of Chaos.

i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby LordSith » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:37 pm

HI,
I intended to report my experience in this topic.

I tried the game last summer in 1.04 iirc but i couldn't pass the gate fight (too hard for my team); i had 1.5 playthrough, which means that i made the game up to mid chapter 2 then restarted after i started understand more of the game mechanics (i did never play 3.5 D&D and know it only by CRPG, nor do i have the patience to read many help files...).

I remembered an demanding tactical rpg with a mockup story.

Now i finished the game twice.

Let me say beforehand some things:
- i'm still not the best player : first attempt was with 8 PC, level 3; second with 7 level 3 (as i wanted to take 3 NPC but only used 2 as the paladin wa too low level and took XP from my group, de-activating her meant more xp for the rest)
- i quickloaded a lot, especially if i had a death and no true rez, or petrification (by gorgons) without the anti petrif spell. Those could be considered cheat, i do not care: it's not fun to penalize a long term run by sheer misluck. in that sense, i have no idea how to go against this because i know that if i would not quickload, that meant the playthrough was dead in the next fight.
- i used "normal mode" but with feat every 2 level (i think) and same for stat increase.
- hp gain after combat
- initiative +4 per feat
- -25% initiative for enemy

My remarks
1) tell the player that the XP is distributed by active players. I do not find the information clear enough in game.
2) make clearer which (green) option will make less xp for the player. At the start of the game, some text say "call help means 40% less", but then in many fights you can ask help : do those help count or not for the reduce xp? I think the game should be clear; like only in the last chapters the game tells you that "not using" Lokkad the genie means bonus xp. Is that the same for the green dragon? for the prince in the queen fight?
3) make clear the xp you would gain for a green option (like banshiment scroll) vs blue option (fight to kill the demon). It may be "out of character" but in my case, i did have to 2 both to check and choose the best XP result.... useless repetition if the game would have said:
    option 1 = fight for X xp
    option 2 = story action for Y xp
Because i find that fight or story choices often do not have consequences... (except maybe the tome of the dead if you use it on the archdemon instead than on the lich but i'm not sure... i always did the lich before and used the tome on her)

3) the lack of multiclass means that i want only some classes:
- a fighter, the ultimate damage dealer with 2 2H weapons imo
- a many attack dealer (in my second playtrough, it was a mantis with 21 attacks per round at average +45 AB, it was fun) or a samourai
- a psyonist
- a (red) wizard
- a cleric... i choose a champion because spells do not really matter at one point, but damage dealt would and the cleric is not a good direct magic dealer imo. Plus turn undead is bad, 2 domaines is weak; bishop is better but has no high level spell as champion, but is a worse warrior than champion
- a paladin, because i love the class. Very good defensive/healer in fact
- a ranger for precise snipping. Best AB at the end (+49 in my case)

That means 7 because i dislike the NPC very much. They have no tale, they have no fun, they have no beautiful portraits i like to watch move and say their little catch phrases. Pizzarra is super powerful, and Erzimon is a very good tool but weak at first (you need to upgrade his HP to avoid One shot in the ch2 and 3).

In my first playthrough i added a rogue (for 8) but except for the rogue special abilities in story, nothing is very catchy and sneak attack stops being used from some point (ch3 , almost every enemy is not sneak attackable... i do not know why but well)

With multiclasss, my ranger would have been rogue (if possible, i repeat that i don't know D&D 3.5 or what the engine is) and i would have loved to try some things (i do not know what, because i'm quite a "if i used it and i liked it, i will always use it" kind of player).

Token mode is very fun because ichoose my token appearance. Sprite is not very much; creating the sprite is quite boring; but using "one page" character creation has a flaw (related to characteristics) that muliple page has not.

4) at some point (level 19) i find the feats lack "specialization"; i would have loved a "ultimate attack bonus" etc. I was like using "general" feats to finish the level up. It was bad; i would have loved to unlock "epic" or "ultimate" spec. Maybe they exist, but if so, the list is not well done; i would really love a tree-arboresence thing to see what i can unlock (the only one i discovered was the "3 feats for +2 save = a feat for +1 for every save roll"...)

5) hp gain after fight is fun, but i think it was what made me succeed because => less rest need => enough rest in game (i didn't, i think, use the "extra rest" option). I would have loved the game to use the numerous "hebs" and breads item i almost never used (i think i used once a bread to do something in a round, and once a coriander herb with use, but i could have used a potion of heal). + I almost never used potions in combat (because AOO) => useless number in the inventory.

At the contrary, i used psy items or some astragalus to avoid spending a rest at some point.

My advice would be to link potion/item to that "auto rest".

6) i wanted to create my own items but:
- game made items are often better (because extra bonuses i cannot do) even if not perfect (except some...)
- it costs XP and i wasn't sure i could go to level 20 with that expenditure (in my second playthrough i could reach level 21 at the end of final battle)
- i can't create the items type i really needs, that is: bracer, boots, cloaks, belts. That's really bad because those are what the game really lack.

7) destroy item monsters are bad. If the item destroyed is unique or exceptionnal, it means quick reload. If it is a belt +2 strength, it means i will not really miss it. => i would prefer the game to include a "repear broken equipement at merchant" which would diminish the gold

8) random effect spell such as prismatic things, if you have no initiative are a quick reload mandatory. It occured less this year because initiative is better than last year for me.

9) the icons on token are really useless: i must really use "v" to check the effects. In some places i would have loved to quickly check the mass effects like protection against fire i would have already cast...

10) when game is full screen, if you alt tab or use a windows screenshot tool, the game minimizes. Boring, for every screen i made for bug reports, i had to "o, window mode, printscreen(s), o, full mode, continue playing"...
11) some lags (see bug)
12) when moving fast, at some point the lack of (i don't know technical term) vertical synchronization? showed and it was very ugly... only happen during travel time.

13) there is probably a "good route" in the chapter 3, and probably in the chapter 4 but it was not clear; apparently happily, the game gives you all fights even if you do not use the "best" route

14) enigmas are not bad (except for the maths etc which sometimes i would just guess) but i always used solution because 1 english is not my native language, 2 i didn't want to lose too much time; but especially, the "30+ questions" need an explanation because i do not know what the answers were, and i was doing the discussion multiple time to try to understand what was the right answers for the last questions (about unfinite, derivate etc.). I'm sorry but algebra, ok, simple probabilities, ok, but derivation etc... i do not remember and i would love to LEARN.
Chess enigmas were a big no no and i just read the solution each time.
The witch enigma, in that sense is just a boring click ordeal. I know it's my fault, but i want my 2x9 scrolls!

15) some things cost very much gold and i do not understand why. Like 50% ring are powerfull... but what's the point when you will take rather a +5 ring and a regeneration or +AB or +dmg ring? maybe it's only me but killing first or not being hit, is best than having 50% of something i would not have (SR)

16) enchanting limit at 10 contributes to make "game" items best. I think that limit has to go. If a player want to make a super weapon and pay for it, why not? make the cost multiplicative or higher after "10" number of enchantment. (in my case, i only boost some items in my second playthrough, and finally i let those go).
17) lack of some weapons: bows in general, but especialy crossbows: i had NONE.
18) because not using forge and enchanting, gems and ingots are most useless (i would say X diamonds are good for the reversal staff, but that's all).

18bis i forgot to count it) Transformation for wizard is cool but it was a button well hidden.

19) some fights are really hard but fun now: Pizarras, queen spider, big goblin fight, almost every fight of chapter 4 (except the random encounters in the castle which are very repetitive).
The fight when a 2d or 3d step happens are very cool because either you are in 1st try and are surprized, or you are not and you are already thinking about the moment the steps will happen so you need to keep resources for the next part.
The final fight is quite too easy because little space, only 4 steps in fight, and except the balor, no real danger... and even the balor is quite weak at that point i found.

20) still many CTDs. Not as many as previous year, but well i had to restart the game at least 20 times in the week i played my 2 playthroughs. Nothing bad for me since I quicksaved a lot due to experience and what i explained before, but imagine if not...

21) when the enemy is playing, the HUD disappear, and that's maybe the worst thing because when enemy play, you can do nothing else than watching the spells etc. I would in some case really like to read what had happened, why etc. The log below can be read after, but sometimes the enemis' turns can take as long as 5-10'... it may be hard to remember "i need to check this or that".

22) it's a short story but that's on me: i only bought the base game, and anyway the "dlcs" are not yet released i think.

23) i like the fact that the XP levels go up 20+ like in Baldur's gate, but the lack of specific feats and things make me wonder if any dlc will use it.

THat's it for now, see you another time for more reports from me.

24) real lack of ammunition after the goblin vendor is lost. I think i can forge some, but never tried because forging cost xp.
OS: windows 10, 64bits, family edition.

Playing KOTC v1.14 as of 1 juni 2021.
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i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby BlueSalamander » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:52 am

Hello LordSith :)

Thank you so much for the detailed feedback!

1) tell the player that the XP is distributed by active players. I do not find the information clear enough in game.
Okay, I will mention it in the tutorial.

2) make clearer which (green) option will make less xp for the player. At the start of the game, some text say "call help means 40% less", but then in many fights you can ask help : do those help count or not for the reduce xp? I think the game should be clear; like only in the last chapters the game tells you that "not using" Lokkad the genie means bonus xp. Is that the same for the green dragon? for the prince in the queen fight?
Right, I will mention that too. It's always 40% fewer XPs in every instance, unless the ally joins the party (like the Demon Maphistor).

make clear the xp you would gain for a green option (like banshiment scroll) vs blue option (fight to kill the demon).
It would be difficult to mention the expected XP from a battle in the text of the dialogue answers, though, because the XP award for each character will depend on the level of the character and the number of party members. As a general rule, I would say that you get more XP and more loot by selecting the hardest options, meaning no magic shortcut and just fighting through everything without any allies.

- a fighter, the ultimate damage dealer with 2 2H weapons imo
My gut feeling is that you could probably replace the Fighter with a Samurai, Gladiator, Psychic Warrior, Barbarian, Bard, Mage Knight or Death Knight for more variety. Champions, Storm Warriors and melee-focused Druids, Clerics and Bishops may work well too.

- a cleric... i choose a champion because spells do not really matter at one point, but damage dealt would and the cleric is not a good direct magic dealer imo. Plus turn undead is bad, 2 domaines is weak; bishop is better but has no high level spell as champion, but is a worse warrior than champion
But then you play without a character who can cast True Resurrection, and having that spell is a massive benefit in my opinion. Hence, I would always have at least one Cleric, Sorcerer or Psychic Healer.

4) at some point (level 19) i find the feats lack "specialization"; i would have loved a "ultimate attack bonus" etc. I was like using "general" feats to finish the level up. It was bad; i would have loved to unlock "epic" or "ultimate" spec.
Epic feats are planned as part of the Kickstarter, please see Update #27: A Closer Look at the New Feats I will add in KotC 2! for details.

5) hp gain after fight is fun, but i think it was what made me succeed because => less rest need => enough rest in game (i didn't, i think, use the "extra rest" option). I would have loved the game to use the numerous "hebs" and breads item i almost never used (i think i used once a bread to do something in a round, and once a coriander herb with use, but i could have used a potion of heal). + I almost never used potions in combat (because AOO) => useless number in the inventory.
I don't see a real issue here. Consumable items become more and more important when you increase the difficulty level, so if you want an experience that requires you to use all of your resources intelligently, then it's best to play with the highest difficulty level (something I recommend).

game made items are often better (because extra bonuses i cannot do) even if not perfect (except some...)
You can still enchant the artifacts further, so no real issue here.

7) destroy item monsters are bad. If the item destroyed is unique or exceptionnal, it means quick reload.
But then why not unequip your important items when fighting such creatures? Repairing broken equipment like in ADOM would be great, indeed, but it's unlikely to make it into the game for technical reasons.

random effect spell such as prismatic things, if you have no initiative are a quick reload mandatory. It occured less this year because initiative is better than last year for me.
A couple of items are planned about this, please see the latest KS update.

9) the icons on token are really useless: i must really use "v" to check the effects. In some places i would have loved to quickly check the mass effects like protection against fire i would have already cast...
Aside from the small icons, you can mouse over the token of a character in the initiative list on the right side of the screen. The tooltip will tell you the effects currently being applied to the character.

10) when game is full screen, if you alt tab or use a windows screenshot tool, the game minimizes. Boring, for every screen i made for bug reports, i had to "o, window mode, printscreen(s), o, full mode, continue playing"...
If the goal is only to take a screenshot, you can do that easily in full-screen mode. You have two options: the Print Screen key, which will put the screen capture in the memory of your operating system, or the game's Left Alt + X shortcut key, which will save a JPG screenshot in the folder Graphics/Screenshots.

11) some lags (see bug)
Usually, you can remove slowdowns using the game options. I would turn off 'Display Environmental Particles' and set all of the AI and animation speeds to the maximum for best results.

12) when moving fast, at some point the lack of (i don't know technical term) vertical synchronization? showed and it was very ugly... only happen during travel time.
In that case, please turn on the game option 'Activate Vertical Synchronisation' under the 'Display' tab.

15) some things cost very much gold and i do not understand why. Like 50% ring are powerfull... but what's the point when you will take rather a +5 ring and a regeneration or +AB or +dmg ring? maybe it's only me but killing first or not being hit, is best than having 50% of something i would not have (SR)
Mm, you mean rings that give 50% resistance to a type of energy? It's pretty rare in the game to get 50% resistance.

16) enchanting limit at 10 contributes to make "game" items best. I think that limit has to go. If a player want to make a super weapon and pay for it, why not? make the cost multiplicative or higher after "10" number of enchantment. (in my case, i only boost some items in my second playthrough, and finally i let those go).
That rule is from the 3.5 ruleset, but we'll see.

17) lack of some weapons: bows in general, but especialy crossbows: i had NONE.
Yeah, but you can craft them as needed.

18) because not using forge and enchanting, gems and ingots are most useless (i would say X diamonds are good for the reversal staff, but that's all).
Totally a matter of player preference. If you don't need something, then you can simply sell it. Like if you find Bard items, but you don't have a Bard.

18bis i forgot to count it) Transformation for wizard is cool but it was a button well hidden.
Okay, I think I will mention it in the tutorial. Thank you.

21) when the enemy is playing, the HUD disappear, and that's maybe the worst thing because when enemy play, you can do nothing else than watching the spells etc. I would in some case really like to read what had happened, why etc. The log below can be read after, but sometimes the enemis' turns can take as long as 5-10'... it may be hard to remember "i need to check this or that".
Yup. I'll see what I can do about this.

24) real lack of ammunition after the goblin vendor is lost. I think i can forge some, but never tried because forging cost xp.
Actually, crafting arrows and crossbow bolts will not cost you any XPs. Only a little bit of gold and one steel ingot. So, I think I'll mention that in the tutorial, too.

Cheers 8-)
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby Sangarunya » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:14 pm

LordSith wrote: 16) enchanting limit at 10 contributes to make "game" items best. I think that limit has to go. If a player want to make a super weapon and pay for it, why not? make the cost multiplicative or higher after "10" number of enchantment. (in my case, i only boost some items in my second playthrough, and finally i let those go).


BlueSalamander wrote: That rule is from the 3.5 ruleset, but we'll see.


Nooo, don't increase the cap on the item enchantments. Crafting is what destroyed the difficulty in Knights of the Chalice. Custom player crafting is what breaks any balance in any 3.5 based system. The expression "super-weapon" is something that don't mix with a tactical party game. I still remember that Kaze no Kama build in NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer with bespoke weapons: those kama +8, cold+2d6, fire+2d6, vampiric regeneration+4... Oh, you want more power? Don't worry about the limit: upgrade them to vampiric regeneration+7, add +2d6 electricity, +2d6 sonic and axiomatic, and, and... The aggregate damage is ridiculous: you can kill Orcus in a round with weapons like this.

3.5 systems have been there for twenty years; they have their share of balance problems and let the player off leash when crafting is not advisable. The amount of damage gained as the character gets more attacks per round is ludicrous.

It's not about what is fun or not in a single-player game - if one wants to cheat or change the original pace of the game, you can open the module editor and modify to your liking the weapons the vendors sell or create new uberpowerful ones and place them wherever in the adventure. The cap on the weapon/armor enchantments is limited for a good reason - this is not an aRPG when enemies die in less than a second.
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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby BlueSalamander » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:23 pm

Yeah. I think the limit of 10 enchantment points is fine.

Not sure how you could craft a kama +8, cold+2d6, fire+2d6, vampiric regeneration+4 in MotB if the game followed the enchantment-point cost. It gets so much more expensive after the first few enchantment points. I remember that you needed essences too.

Best regards :)
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby LordSith » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:48 pm

Thanks for reading. Those were my feelings. All may not be good ideas (i'm not a game designer ;)) but just my own opinion :D.
OS: windows 10, 64bits, family edition.

Playing KOTC v1.14 as of 1 juni 2021.
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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:48 pm

Thank you LordSith! All feedback is welcome. 8-)

On the enchantment thing, I thought that maybe it would make sense if Green Wizards could exceed the limit somehow, but then that character class would probably become too important...

Cheers :)
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby Atoch » Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:50 pm

I think the limit of 10 enchantment points is reasonable.

But I would really like if we could un-enchant some enchantments, even if it is costly. So some of the better "artifacts" could be more "personalized ;)
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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby BlueSalamander » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:35 pm

Hello Atoch! Thank you for the great suggestion. It reminds me of another suggestion to allow the player to recover materials from discarded items, e.g. recover an adamantine ingot from an adamantine full plate.

It may be possible to expand the weapon / armour enchantment interface so that you can remove certain enchantments, as long as they're not needed for other enchantments in the item, like Flaming for Flaming Burst.

How do you see this working? Should there be a cost and if so, how much? I guess that the magic diamond used to create the enchantment would be lost.

And for the recovery of materials, how about this: if you destroy an item while trading with one of the characters who can enchant items, if the item was made with a special material (not just steel) you'll get one ingot of that special material, and if the item was enchanted beyond +1, you'll get a single magic diamond that will depend on the highest-cost enchantment present on the weapon. How does that sound? Cheers 8-)
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby Atoch » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:46 pm

I think that un-enchanting an enchantment should cost as much as the enchanting of the enchantment had cost – XP, money, even perhaps the equivalent magic diamond.

(If you want to promote Green Wizards - they could get a discount! (but technically, the (un-)enchantment would still be performed by the magic merchant?))

Why should it be costly?

- If you sell an enchanted item and then create an item with the same level of enchantment, it would cost you a lot – ‘cause of the difference between selling and buying prizes.
If you now can re-use some of the existing enchantments – you would potentially save a lot.
But “Augury of Chaos” is already finished – a greater change in the economics of the game retroactively wouldn’t be a good idea, would it? (I’m not sure myself...)
- More importantly for me: artefacts, with a story and a history behind them, shouldn’t be changed to easily! It should cost you!

But as a player, I would rather have it cheap. So if someone discovers some good reasons to make it cheaper – I will readily persuaded otherwise!


Recovery of materials: Your proposal sounds well.
In AoC I was never out of magic metal ingots. So, if we can even better utilize existing magic weapons by un-enchanting and re-enchanting them, I don’t see a high demand for this feature in AoC – but it would still be a cool feature with potential.

“Un-enchanting” and “Recovery of Materials” should be topics discussed in the tutorial, of course – if you decide to implement them.
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Re: i finally finished the game (v1.13 and 1.14)

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:23 pm

Hello Atoch! :-)

I think that un-enchanting an enchantment should cost as much as the enchanting of the enchantment had cost – XP, money, even perhaps the equivalent magic diamond.
(If you want to promote Green Wizards - they could get a discount! (but technically, the (un-)enchantment would still be performed by the magic merchant?))
I like those ideas. So, say you want to remove Flaming Burst from a +2 Swift Flaming Burst longsword. The gold and XP cost would be the same as for adding Flaming Burst to a +2 Swift longsword.

- More importantly for me: artefacts, with a story and a history behind them, shouldn’t be changed to easily! It should cost you!
That makes sense.

Recovery of materials: Your proposal sounds well. In AoC I was never out of magic metal ingots. So, if we can even better utilize existing magic weapons by un-enchanting and re-enchanting them, I don’t see a high demand for this feature in AoC – but it would still be a cool feature with potential.
OK, thank you. I'm taking a note of both concepts for possible implementation at some point.

“Un-enchanting” and “Recovery of Materials” should be topics discussed in the tutorial, of course – if you decide to implement them.
Absolutely. Thank you for all the great ideas! Cheers 8-)
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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