More pressure with Overrun

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More pressure with Overrun

Postby Sangarunya » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:31 pm

One of the things that irks me the most in roleplaying pc games is when a several-tons enemy fights toe to toe against a humanoid adventurer - they move until their base circles touch each other, plant their feet, hooves or whatever and they throw hits like the difference in size and weight means nothing. For example (and according to the Monster Manuals): an Iron Golem weights around 2600 kg, a Remorhaz 4500 kg, a Triceratops 9000kg and an Adamantine Golem 14500 kg. But they never take advantage of it: no pushing, no trampling, nothing, only swinging weapons or arms around in wide movements, like a pantomime.
In the game we have several tactics available to force a move on the opponent but overrun lacks heaviness. Is like a clutch movement option for the oversized creatures that don't have free squares around them.

The pathfinder d20 rules: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#TOC-Overrun

And the d20 3.5 rules link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun

The most important part is the CMD roll done when trying to pass through a enemy square: if the result is greater than five for one of the two parts, the loser is knocked down. A nice condition to take advantage of in combat.
In the 3.5 rules the feat Improved Overrun precludes the target of the maneuver to avoid you and grants a +4 Strength bonus to do the action.
In the Pathfinder version instead, the attacker doesn't receive an attack of opportunity and gets a +2 bonus.

In Ad&d 2nd edition there was an optional rule for this combat action and it added a certain amount of damage if the target is knocked down: 1d4 points of damage per difference of size category. I don't know if would be balanced, but it makes sense that the slammed one suffers some punishment. Given that the playable characters lie between small and large, the upper damage boundary will be around 5d4, so it's acceptable.

Another thing to consider is the possibility for the target to avoid the confrontation and let the creature to pass through the square without resistance. I think it would be tedious to open a dialog menu every time this maneuver is done to ask the player if let pass or not, so it could be substituted by an automatic reflex saving roll: if the defender succeeds, avoids the damage but it still can be knocked down.

In the Pathfinder rules, it is mentioned that an overrun can be done like a part of a charge. Certain creatures get bonuses or force a saving roll when charging, so it makes sense for them to gain leverage when the bonus is applied.

And last, there is the Trample Special Attack, basically an overrun without CMD roll and with more damage:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/

Don't know what combination of the rules above could be more fitting for the game but I think it'll be worthwhile to consider these additions to the overrun maneuver - it enhances the danger of fighting against big heavyweight enemies. Whether is crushing enemies under your sandaled feet or being ironed out by a juggernaut, adventuring is not an easy task and picking on creatures tenfold your weight or more should have risks.

One last thing: the cost of moving through an occupied square is doubled so the cost of overrun in a straight line is (5 + 10) but avoiding the creature with two diagonal moves will be less (7+7). So eluding the enemy is always optimum for the moving costs. Then, would the AI choose overruning an enemy if it has the chance? Or the optimization pathfinding algorithm precludes it and the other option is never considered?
Sangarunya
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More pressure with Overrun

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Re: More pressure with Overrun

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:13 pm

Hello Sangarunya :)

Thank you for the suggestions and details.

Don't know what combination of the rules above could be more fitting for the game but I think it'll be worthwhile to consider these additions to the overrun maneuver - it enhances the danger of fighting against big heavyweight enemies. Whether is crushing enemies under your sandaled feet or being ironed out by a juggernaut, adventuring is not an easy task and picking on creatures tenfold your weight or more should have risks.

I quite like the idea of an Improved Overrun feat. For example: with this feat, whenever you move through a square occupied by an enemy creature, if the size category of the enemy is lower than yours, it must succeed on an opposed Strength check OR a reflex saving throw to avoid becoming prone.

Nothing happens if the enemy succeeds on either the strength check or the reflex saving throw.

On the strength check, you gain a +4 bonus for each point of size category above Medium and -4 for each size category below Medium.

How does that sound? I guess that would require some AI coding too, so that a monster could choose to spend a move action just to go through some of the player characters (and then do a standard attack).

One last thing: the cost of moving through an occupied square is doubled so the cost of overrun in a straight line is (5 + 10) but avoiding the creature with two diagonal moves will be less (7+7). So eluding the enemy is always optimum for the moving costs. Then, would the AI choose overruning an enemy if it has the chance? Or the optimization pathfinding algorithm precludes it and the other option is never considered?

Well, this is what I was saying. The AI would need to decide to do it, and so adopt a path that goes through one or more opponents, such as a straight line similar to the charge path. I might also give an AI bonus to any 'overrun' path that might topple one or more opponents, so that it could be chosen instead of the path of lowest movement cost.

I can't promise that this will be implemented, though, because many other things are already planned. We'll see.

Cheers 8-)
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