Haste, Hasted and Weapon Enchantment: Swift

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Haste, Hasted and Weapon Enchantment: Swift

Postby Sangarunya » Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:51 pm

The game rules state that the effect of a weapon with the speed enchantment stacks with haste but reading the d20srd:

3.5 -> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm -> Speed section
Pathfinder -> https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/speed/

Both rulesets say that the effect is NOT aggregated with the granted by the wizard spell. I tried in the game and effectively, the character gets one extra attack by Haste and another by the Swift weapon. Two extra attacks as soon as the wizard learns level three spells at level 5 seems overpowering. I think the bonuses should be mutually exclusive and avoid a certain source of imbalance.

Is also explained in the Haste spell section:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/haste
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm

Edited:

I was reading about haste effects and found out that speed weapons also don't stack their effects, so wielding multiple weapons of speed don't add several attacks, only one. Again, another difference with the game as it is now. And this is important - the rules stack every single modifier on every weapon available.

For example, a 20 level mantis fighter has 4 natural attacks with each arm (4x4 = 16). If each weapon is a weapon of speed, sum another four attacks. If hasted, add one per weapon (+4). So the character hasted and armed with swift weapons gets 16 + 4 + 4 = 24 attacks per round. Following the 3.5 and Pathfinder rules, the number will be 16 + 1 = 17. There is a difference of seven attacks, and given the damage that a fighter can deal for each hit with all the magic items available at high levels, we could be talking about more than 150 points of damage.

At low levels the difference is also astounding. Let's say the party have just reached level 5. Now, the wizard has access to the Haste spell. And suppose they have the materials and the gold to forge four swift weapons. A level 5 mantis fighter has 1 attack per arm - if hasted or with one weapon of speed, adds another; total 4 + 1 = 5. But in the game right now we get 4 normal attacks plus 4 with the swift weapons and another 4 for being hasted (hasted effect applied over each weapon). It aggregates to 12 attacks. The same difference of seven attacks but the character more than doubles the number of attacks at level 5. I can't imagine what a hasted Marilith with six swift weapons could do.

I've been reading about these rules and found lots of heated discussions on the Internet: it stacks? It doesn't? The rules were a little blurry in D&D 3.0 and clarifications were added to the FAQs and the text was corrected in 3.5 and Pathfinder. In short: in old editions Haste granted and additional attack per weapon but in 3.0 and following, the spell was reworded to give a "hasted" effect. Speed weapons also give the wielder the same effect and similar bonuses don't stack causing the character only gets one additional attack no matter the number of speed weapons he uses.

This probably requires careful considerations. Mantises are grind machines with these accumulating effects - there is a huge difference of damage compared with the other races. And Haste is a very powerful spell in spite of being only a level 3 one. Is a no-brainer tactic. Swift weapons are somehow locked behind the number of Earth Diamonds, but the overpowering effect is just there, waiting for an off-guard vendor to unleash the unlimited power.

Give it a thought or two - the game should have fun tactics but also limit the abuse that certain combinations can do.
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Haste, Hasted and Weapon Enchantment: Swift

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Re: Haste, Hasted and Weapon Enchantment: Swift

Postby BlueSalamander » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:48 pm

Hello Sangarunya :)

Thank you for your post. The problem with not allowing the extra attacks to stack is that Swift weapons essentially become useless. Any use of the Cleric's Celerity domain or the Wizard's Haste spell will negate the benefit from having Swift weapons.

Having them stack does mean you might get creatures and characters with a tonne of attacks. However, if they get Slowed, they lose all of the extra attacks.

Also, there are other enchantments that may be better than Swift. So, in the end, I don't think it's a big issue. Cheers 8-)
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