Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrior

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Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrior

Postby ociebieda » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:03 pm

Is not Champion OP when compared to Mage Knight, Storm Warrior and possibly Psychic Warrior?
I know that balance varies between classes, modules and party composition, but lets take a look at details to see what I mean.

Defense (HP/Saves/AC).
Champion - 10 HD, 1 Save (Fortitude), all armors and shields, Divine Shield feat for casting with heavy/tower shields.
Mage Knight - 8 HD, 2 Saves (Reflex, Will), light armors and shields, Armored Casting feat + 1-2 armor proficiency feats for casting with medium/heavy armors, no heavier shields.
Storm Warrior - 10 HD, 1 Save (Fortitude), casting only with leather/hide (non metal) armors and light shields.
Psychic Warrior - 8 HD, 1 Save (Fortitude), all armors and light/heavy shields, tower shield proficiency feat for casting with it.
HD is random (possible average 1 HP advantage per level), Constitution guarantees HP, and Saves are valuable (average of two abilities divided by 2, so actually ability 4 means +1 save) for less damage/useless/ineffective.
I would say ok, Mage Knight wins, because armor can be upgraded with more available bonus feats (2-3).
Champion comparison is 2 HD (possible average 1 HP advantage per level) vs +1 Save.
Psychic Warrior has lower both, HP and Save, while Storm Warrior only save, but is additionally limited in AC (non metal armors).

Melee.
Champion - 4 BAB, class feats: Perfect Combat Casting, Divine Weapon (x2, bypassing aligned DR, +2/+5 damage holy/unholy/axiomatic/anarchic).
Mage Knight - 4 BAB, class feats: Perfect Combat Casting, Elemental Weapon (x2, any elemental weapon +1d6/+2d6).
Storm Warrior - 4 BAB, class feats: Perfect Combat Casting, Storm Weapon (x2, only electric weapon +1d6/+2d6), Water/Forest Affinity (+2 attack and AC when underwater/swimming or forest/jungle).
Psychic Warrior - 3 BAB, class feats: Strength Focus (+2 grapple and strength checks), Melee Focus (+1 melee attack).
All classes can choose 3 weapon proficiences.
Perfect Combat Casting feat gives +4 Concentration, ignores attacks of opportunity when casting, and is available to all except Psychic Warrior.
Basic Attack Bonus (BAB) increases number of attacks to up to 4 (3 if 3 BAB, attacks above 1 require full round attack) and their bonus to hit up to +20/+15/+10/+5 (+15/+10/+5 if 3 BAB), what makes Psychic Warrior less effective in it.
Champion and Mage Knight seem similar in class melee feats, while two others offer different type of benefits (except weaker Storm Weapon).
I would say Champion and Mage Knight are winners here.
Storm Warrior has situational class feats (only electric weapon or specific environment bonus), and then Psychic Warrior with 3 BAB has less attacks and chances to hit.

Spellcasting.
Champion - 7th Cleric spells (wisdom), new spell level per 2-3 levels, 4 slots (28 total), new slot in each spell level per 1/1-2/4 levels, 41 of 125 spells, scrolls to learn or cast.
Mage Knight - 6th Wizard spells (intellect), new spell level per 3 levels, 3 slots (18 total), new slot in each spell level per 1/7-8 levels, 41 of 214 spells, scrolls to learn or cast.
Storm Warrior - 7th Druid spells (wisdom), new spell level per 2-3 levels, 4 slots (28 total), new slot in each spell level per 1/1-2/4 levels, 41 of 97 spells, scrolls to learn or cast.
Psychic Warrior - 6th class powers (wisdom), new spell level per 3 levels, new 2/4/8/12 power points per 5 levels (127 total), 31 powers known of 48.
Champion class feats: Perfect Combat Casting, Spell Focus (x2, +1/+2 DC to all spells), Energy Defence (4 Protection From Energy spells as move).
Mage Knight class feats: Perfect Combat Casting, Spell Focus (x2 5, +1/+2 DC to 1 of 5 spell schools), Unlimited Spells (12 damage spells get +2 damage and no level limit, 10 are Evocation), Enhance Ability (x2, 2 spells get +2 bonus, then as move).
Storm Warrior class feats: Perfect Combat Casting, Spell Focus (x2, +1/+2 DC to all spells).
Psychic Warrior class feats: Psionic Talent (+1 power points per level), Psychometabolism (x2, 11/22 powers as move), Biofeedback/Mind Leech (improvements to single powers).
Champion and Storm Warrior seem similar, except that the second has no improvement to specific spells and spell list is lower by 28, giving 97 instead of 125.
Mage Knight is a noticeable disappointment here, not only because max spell level is lower by 1 (3 total), but also number of slots (max 3 per spell level and 18 total, instead of 4 and 28, giving difference of 1 and 10) and progression in getting them is lower too (new spell level per 3 levels instead of 2-3, third slot after 7-8 more levels instead of 1-2).
Additionally, Spell Focus feat is divided into 5 categories of spells instead of 1 like in other classes (yes, I know, it is arcane vs divine standard) and Unlimited Spells seems to be not enough useful, because of mentioned earlier limits.
Psychic Warrior seems to be harder for direct comparison for me, since this class works in some different way.

Feats and Skills.
Champion - 5 bonus feats, honor skill, other class feats: Divine Armor (ignores lower speed with medium/heavy armors).
Mage Knight - 8 bonus feats, arcana skill, other class feats: nothing extra except already mentioned.
Storm Warrior - 5 bonus feats, nature skill, other class feats: Fire/Cold/Electricity Resistance (10 DR).
Psychic Warrior - 8 bonus feats, psionics skill, other class feats: nothing extra except already mentioned.
Mage Knight has 8 bonus feats, but 2-3 can be needed for casting in medium/heavy armors (so 5-6), while Psychic Warrior can use them for other things.
Champion has probably less useful skill, but Divine Armor might be something to consider when using heavy armor without additional bonus speed item.

Warrior focused.
Champion and Mage Knight seem to be similar as frontline warrior, if second one use 2-3 bonus feats for Armored Casting and armor proficiency, so they end up with 5 vs 5-6 bonus feats for other things.
To compare, pure Fighter class has 31 bonus feats, 5 weapon proficiences, and 23 warrior focused class feats.
They can be good enough melee frontliners with useful support spells (no DC ones), as long as they focus all their limited number of feats on that part, keep maximizing Strength (melee, maneuvers, checks, ranged, save, feats, weight) as priority (18-20 starter ability + items + each level up), improve Constitution (hp, save, concentration) and Dexterity (ranged, ac, opportunities, save, feats, initiative) as secondary (14-18 starter abilities + optional items), and ignore Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma (8-12 starter abilities + no items except bonus slot ones, spells can be learn from scrolls, there are many useful spells with no DC, bonus spell slots per attribute is low).
Storm Warrior and Psychic Warrior seem to be weaker, one limited to leather/hide armors, second with 8 HD and 3 BAB.

Spellcasting Focused.
As mentioned earlier, Champion and Storm Warrior seem to be similar as spellcaster, while Mage Knight is a noticeable disappointment.
To compare, pure Cleric/Druid/Wizard has 9th spells, new spell level per 2 levels, 4-5/4-5/4 slots (41/41/36 total), new slot in each spell level per 1/2/3/4 levels.

It seems like Champion is good as both, warrior and weaker spellcaster.
Mage Knight is good as warrior, but noticeably weaker as spellcaster.
Storm Warrior is good as weaker spellcaster, but weaker warrior than two others.
Psychic Warrior is weaker warrior, but I am not sure about comparing as spellcaster.

List of quick comparison view on all classes.
Maybe someone will find it useful.

Fighter (warrior, 10 HD, 31 bonus feats + 5/int weapons, 23 class feats, 4 BAB, armors/shields, warrior/streetwise)
Gladiator (warrior, 12 HD, 8 bonus feats + all weapons, 16 class feats, 4 special abilities, 4 BAB, armors/shields, warrior)
Death Knight (warrior, 10 HD, 2 saves, 2 bonus feats + 4 weapons, 12 class feats, 8 special abilities, 4 BAB, armors/shields, assassin)
Monk (warrior, 8 HD, 3 saves, 5 bonus feats + light/natural weapons, 11 class feats, 13 special abilities, 3 BAB or 5 special attacks, religion/assassin/poison)
Samurai (warrior, 10 HD, 4 bonus feats + sword/1/wis weapons, 13 class feats, 6 special abilities, 4 BAB, armors, honor)
Barbarian (warrior, 12 HD, 4 bonus feats + 4 weapons, 12 class feats, 9 special abilities, 4 BAB, light/medium armors and all shields, warrior)
Champion (warrior/Cleric, 10 HD, 5 bonus feats + 3 weapons, 8 class feats, 7th wis cleric spells, 41/wis spells of 125, 4 slots of 28/wis, 4 BAB, armors/shields, honor)
Mage Knight (warrior/Wizard, 8 HD, 2 saves, 8 bonus feats + 3 weapons, 17 class feats, 6th int wizard spells, 41/int spells of 214, 3 slots of 18/int, 4 BAB, light armors/shields, arcana)
Storm Warrior (warrior/Druid, 10 HD, 5 bonus feats + 3 weapons, 10 class feats, 7th wis druid spells, 41/wis spells of 97, 4 slots of 28/wis, 4 BAB, leather/hide armors and light shields, nature)
Psychic Warrior (warrior/Psionicist, 8 HD, 8 bonus feats + 3 weapons, 8 class feats, 6th wis class powers, 31/wis powers of 48, 127/wis PP, 3 BAB, all armors and light/heavy shields, psionics)
Paladin (warrior/Cleric, 10 HD, 5 bonus feats + 3 weapons, 10 class feats, 5 special abilities, 4th wis class spells, 36 spells, 3 slots of 12/wis, 4 BAB, armors/shields, honor/detect)
Ranger (warrior/Druid, 10 HD, 2 saves, 5 bonus feats + 3 weapons, 9 class feats, 8 special abilities, 4th wis class spells, 26 spells, 3 slots of 12/wis, 4 BAB, light armors/shields, nature/wilderness)
Rogue (warrior/Wizard, 8 HD, 3 bonus feats + 3 weapons, 8 class feats, 9 special abilities, 4th int class spells, 36 spells, 3 slots of 12/int, 3 BAB, light armors, assassin/streetwise/search/lockpick/stealth/pickpocket/forge/disguise)
Bard (warrior/spellcaster, 10 HD, 2 saves, 9 bonus feats + 4 weapons, 13 class feats, 5 special abilities, 7 cha class spells, level/cha/int slots, 4 BAB, light armors and light/heavy shields, streetwise/charm/sing/instruments/legends)
Wizard (spellcaster, 6 HD, 4 bonus feats + crossbow weapons, 37 class feats + 5 of 25 or 3, 3 special abilities, 9th int wizard spells, 41/int spells of 214, 4 slots of 36/int, arcana)
Psionicist (spellcaster, 6 HD, 5 bonus feats, 33 class feats, 9th int class powers, 41/int powers of 103, 343/int PP, psionics)
Druid (spellcaster, 8 HD, 2 saves, 1 bonus feats + light weapons, 13 class feats, 2 special abilities, 9th wis druid spells, 41/wis spells of 97, 5 or 4 slots of 41/wis, 3 BAB, leather/hide armors and light shields, nature/healing/animals/stones)
Cleric (spellcaster, 8 HD, 2 saves, mace weapons, 7 class feats, 1 special abilities + 2 domains, 9th wis cleric spells, 41/wis spells of 125, 5 or 4 slots of 41/wis, 3 BAB, all armors and light shields, healing/religion)
Bishop (Cleric, 8 HD, 2 saves, 4 bonus feats + mace weapons, 6 class feats, 1 special abilities + 6 domains, 7th wis cleric spells, 41/wis spells of 125, 5 or 4 slots of 33/wis, 3 BAB, all armors and light shields, religion)
Sorcerer (Wizard/Cleric, 6 HD, 21 class feats, 1 special abilities, 9th int wizard spells, 9th wis cleric spells, 82/cha spells of 214 + 125, 6 or 5 or 4 or 3 or 2 slots of 40/cha, arcana)
Psychic Healer (Cleric/Psionicist, 6 HD, 14 class feats, 9th wis cleric spells, 41/cha spells of 125, 4 or 3 or 2 slots of 31/cha, 9th int class powers, 41/cha powers of 103, 172/cha PP, healing)
Warlock (Wizard/Psionicist, 6 HD, 29 class feats, 9th int wizard spells, 41/cha spells of 214, 4 or 3 or 2 slots of 31/cha, 9th wis class powers, 41/cha powers of 103, 172/cha PP, psionics)
ociebieda
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Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrior

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Re: Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrio

Postby Roguenbauld » Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:22 pm

Nice comparisson. Made me think about Champion as something I don`t use as much and should rlly be using.

How would you compare it to Bard? In terms of relevance, I mean.

Thanks for the good info. Cheers!
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Re: Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrio

Postby ociebieda » Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:54 pm

I did not try Bard, except the one that joins you in tutorial and has some racial (Mantis) benefits.
It is different type of semi caster, since 4 metioned above are just limited mix of Fighter and access to spells of one of standard full spellcasters, with few class abilities to choose and no special abilities, but take a look at pure data anyway.

Defense (HP/Saves/AC).
Bard - 10 HD, 2 Saves (Reflex, Will), light armors and light/heavy shields, Armored Musican (level 6) feat + medium armor proficiency feat for casting with medium armors, no heavy armors and tower shields.
I would say, Bard is comparable in defense with Champion and Mage Knight.
HD and Saves are as high or higher than other semi spellcaster classes.
Before level 6, temporary heavy shield can complement AC for frontline, and later medium armor can be good enough with dexterity 14+ (additionally, starting dexterity 14 gives access to Dodge and Combat Reflexes feats, and will improve secondary ranged weapon attack chance to hit on occasion, but higher amount should can go as bonus from items) to fully switch into two handed weapons if desired.

Melee.
Bard - 4 BAB, 4 weapon proficiences, class feats: no related class feats.
BAB is as high or higher than other semi spellcaster classes, weapon proficiences are higher by 1 (can get that reach weapons as addition to one/two handed swords and bows), and while there is no Perfect Combat Casting feat, 5 basic songs ignore attacks of opportunity.

Spellcasting.
Bard has 5 basic songs that use shared resources (Intelligence mod + Charisma mod + level, divided by 2, giving total of 10 plus 1 per 4 ability points instead of standard 2) with spells, ignore attacks of opportunity, are free action, have long aura range, provide bonuses to party (attack/AC/saves/DC/damage) for 4+ rounds and do not stack (they replace each other, but not spells).
There are only 7 spells, 5 at level 2, 1 at 8, 1 at 15, which are 2 debuff, 1 damage + CC, 3 CC (2 available at higher levels), 1 heal.
DC is Charisma mod + half of level, each spell can be improved with proper 1-2 class feats (19 total) and instrument item placed in arms slot, Lingering Song feat increases songs duration by 2 rounds, Bard Stamina feat increases shared resources by 2.
Without going in available spell details, Bard has 10 total uses (slots) plus 1 per 4 ability points vs 18/28 plus 1-2 per 2 ability points, 7 spells + 5 songs (12 total) vs 31/41 + learned from scrolls (except psionics) of 48/97/125/214, no possibility to complement with casting scrolls, most spells (5, except Zone Of Silence and Healing Song) have DC (can be ignored/weakened with Saves), so Charisma can be important.

Feats and Skills.
Bard - 9 bonus feats, streetwise/charm/sing/instruments/legends skills, other class feats: nothing extra except already mentioned.
Casting in medium armors requires 2 bonus feats, so 7 are available for other things vs 5/5/5-6/8 of 4 other classes.

It seems like Bard is as good warrior as Champion and Mage Knight, but much weaker as spellcaster than any 4 mentioned semi caster classes, due to noticeable lowest number of spell slots and available spells, and no backup scrolls (and 5 of 7 spells are DC based, so might be weaker if most time used in frontline recommended Strength will be increasing instead of occasionally used secondary Charisma during level ups, while other semi caster classes have many no DC spells to choose).
There can be still something in deeper details like general usability and effectiveness of spells or even maybe simplicity for someone.
ociebieda
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Re: Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrio

Postby ociebieda » Sun May 01, 2022 1:56 am

I decided to take a look at other semi spellcaster classes, Ranger, Rogue, and Paladin.
Additionally Cleric and Bishop.

Defense (HP/Saves/AC).
Ranger - 10 HD, 2 Saves (Fortitude, Reflex), light armors and shields, heavier armors possible (but deactivate some feats), no heavier shields, half damage from reflex save (light armor only).
Rogue - 8 HD, 1 Save (Reflex), light armors, heavier armors possible with Armored Casting feat (but deactivate some feats), no shields, half damage from reflex save (light armor only), ignored attacks of opportunity when move away (light armor only), no lost dex to AC when flat footed, ignored flanking, +1 dodge AC with Greater Dodge feat.
Paladin - 10 HD, 1 Save (Fortitude), all armors and shields, Divine Shield feat for casting with heavy/tower shields, +1 all saves (max +4 from Charisma mod).
Cleric - 8 HD, 2 Saves (Fortitude, Will), all armors and light shields, no heavier shields.
Bishop - 8 HD, 2 Saves (Fortitude, Will), all armors and light shields, no heavier shields.

Melee.
Ranger - 4 BAB, class feats: Water/Forest Affinity (+2 attack and AC when underwater/swimming or forest/jungle).
Rogue - 3 BAB, Sneak Attack (+1d6 damage per 2 levels if target flanked/prone/slowed/confused/cursed/nauseated or lost dex to AC, additionally 2 str damage), class feats: Melee Focus (+1 melee attack).
Paladin - 4 BAB, Smite Evil (Charisma mod bonus to attack and level bonus to damage if target is evil, +1 use per combat per 4 levels, uses if hits), class feats: Heroic Weapon (x2, +1/+2 attack and +2/+4 damage to dragons/outsiders/undead).
Cleric - 3 BAB, mace proficiency only, class feats: no related class feats.
Bishop - 3 BAB, mace proficiency only, class feats: no related class feats.

Spellcasting.
Ranger - 4th class spells (wisdom), new spell level per 3-4 levels, 3 slots (12 total), new slot in each spell level per 2-3/4/4 levels, 26 spells, divine scrolls.
Rogue - 4th class spells (intelligence), new spell level per 3-4 levels, 3 slots (12 total), new slot in each spell level per 2-3/4/4 levels, 36 spells, arcane scrolls.
Paladin - 4th class spells (wisdom), new spell level per 3-4 levels, 3 slots (12 total), new slot in each spell level per 2-3/4/4 levels, 36 spells, divine scrolls.
Cleric - 9th Cleric spells (wisdom), new spell level per 2 levels, 4-5 slots (41 total), new slot in each spell level per 1/2/3/4 levels, 41 of 125 spells, divine scrolls.
Bishop - 7th Cleric spells (wisdom), new spell level per 2-3 levels, 4-5 slots (33 total), new slot in each spell level per 1/1-2/2-3/4 levels, 41 of 125 spells, divine scrolls.
Ranger class feats: Spell Focus (x2, +1/+2 DC to all spells).
Rogue class feats: Spell Focus (x2, +1/+2 DC to all spells), Fast Spells (13 spells as move), Fireball (+50% radius, long range, no level limit), Orb Master (Chromaric Orb allows to choose effect).
Paladin class feats: Spell Focus (x2, +1/+2 DC to all spells).
Cleric class feats: Spell Focus (x2, +1/+2 DC to all spells), Energy Defence (4 Protection From Energy spells as move), Holy Smite/Magic Stone/Sound Burst (improvements to single spells).
Bishop class feats: Spell Focus (x2, +1/+2 DC to all spells), Energy Defence (4 Protection From Energy spells as move).

Feats and Skills.
Ranger - 5 bonus feats, nature/wilderness skill, other class feats: Fire/Cold Resistance (10 DR), 3 ranged attack feats.
Rogue - 3 bonus feats, assassin/streetwise/search/lockpick/stealth/pickpocket/forge/disguise skill, other class feats: .
Paladin - 5 bonus feats, honor/detect skill, other class feats: Heroic Shield (if using shield, small aura +2 AC against dragons/outsiders/undead), Mystic Shield (if using shield, small aura +2 reflex), Smite (+1 use or +2/+4 with Smite attacks).
Cleric - no bonus feats, healing/religion skill, other class feats: Extra Turning (+2 more uses of Turn Undead or activating Domain, +50% cone range).
Bishop - 4 bonus feats, religion skill, other class feats: Extra Turning (+2 more uses of Turn Undead or activating Domain, +50% cone range), Turning (x2, Turn Undead affects elementals/outsiders, then aberrations/dragons/constructs).
Ranger free specials: 7 ranged attack feats.
Rogue free specials: dex instead of str to break free from grapple/pin/stuck with +2 bonus, moving through enemies at half speed (medium armor only)
Paladin free specials: extra spells slots from Charisma mod, immunity to fear, small aura with +1/+2 will, small aura with +4 reflex against gaze/breath attacks if using shield.
Cleric free specials: Turn Undead (+1d6 damage per 2 levels to all undead in long cone range, will reduces by half, DC is half of level + Charisma mod, undead ally are healed, 1 + Charisma mod uses per rest), 2 chosen Domains (set of various bonuses, some passive, some cost Turn Undead use to be activated, some can be used once per rest).
Bishop free specials: Turn Undead (+1d6 damage per 2 levels to all undead in long cone range, will reduces by half, DC is half of level + Charisma mod, undead ally are healed, 1 + Charisma mod uses per rest), 6 chosen Domains (set of various bonuses, some passive, some cost Turn Undead use to be activated, some can be used once per rest).
ociebieda
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Re: Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrio

Postby Liberator » Thu May 26, 2022 10:03 am

Nice work, but without compare spell list, this comparison is far from complete or even accurate, though

Comparing to their 9 circle counterpart, these warrior version mostly focus on close combat, with amour proficiency, more feats, melee focused class feats and high bab. Plus lack of spell casting class feats, high end spell and low DC due to mixed ability score requirement, those classes should be mainly focused on buff up and hack their enemy, or using melee touch spell and some close range spell, and maybe some summons, too. Buff spells should also be divided into two categories: the "until rest" buff, and other buff that can't cast before battle.

So the key question become, which spell in their spell list could give them edge over other warrior class.

Champion: Cleric spell are full of buffs, unfortunately almost all of them must cast during combat, only 5 spells have a duration until rest: water breathing(useless), stoneskin personal (as the mercy of dev, added as level 6 spell), good fortune(contingent heal sadly out of champion's reach as level 8 spell), and Contingent (Greater) Break Enchantment (useful but not that useful, and greater version is out of reach as level 9 spell).

As a warrior, champions should spend most of their turn hacking enemy rather than buffing up, leave the buff job to full spellcaster and only cast some important personal range buff, such as divine favor, divine power and righteous might. Sadly the most useful self buff in cleric spell book, divine power, become useless since champions are already high bab. Cleric spell also lack good touch spell, a champion can only use inflict series and harm, as slay living require a fortitude save.

So all in all, champion is just slightly more beefy and sustainable than a melee focused cleric, with extra combat feat but without domain and high level spell, hardly a good "magic warrior"

Mage knight: wizard spell list has a lot of useful "until rest" buffs: protect from arrows, mage armor(rendered useless since mage knight wearing armor), blur, mirror image, Minute Meteors( when you can't reach your enemy and don't need buff this turn), water breathing(let other spellcaster use them if needed), stone skin personal, Contingent Break Enchantment and dispelling buffer(situational spell). Sadly foresight and mind blank are out of reach. Good personal combat buff like force shield, Globe of Invulnerability and iron body(pity, it's out of reach) are very useful too, also true strike for all the good touch and ranged touch spell in wizard spell list. Spells like haste and heroism can also booster mage knight's combat capacity if no free spellcaster for this.

At the end of the day, mage knight provide a unique niche in the early game, but not that impressive at higher level. Though at least they can't be easily surpassed by a melee focused wizard, unless it's a mantis green mage construct transformed and casting transformation.

Storm warrior: Druid access to some nice "until rest" buff like long stride, Shillelagh, freedom of movement personal, stone skin personal, and other useful spell like regeneration, barkskin, as well as protect from energy series and nature summons cast with movement action, allow to cast two spells a turn. Problem is, all these spells can also be used by a melee focused druid, who can also benefit from blindsight, oakbody, foresight that is out of storm warrior's reach. Good thing is druid spell list does not include bab improve spell like divine power and transformation, so high bab are still very useful, until you find a belt that improve mid bab to high....

Psychic warrior: The only mid bab "magic warrior", but as a class from SRD rather than dev's house rule, they use a modified power list different from psionicist, thus more focused on melee combat.
Psionicist power also include a lot of good "until rest" buff, such as inertia armor, psionic mage armor that can boost beyond original value, up to 13 AC at level 19, considering a +5 mithral full plate with +2 dex can only provide 16 ac, a psionicist/psychic warrior with 16+ dex and no armor provide higher armor bonus...and there's force screen, an until rest version of force shield that provide armor similar to tower shield up to +4 enchantment( and only for psychic warrior- psionicist version of force screen is combat only spell), and thicken skin, until rest version of barkskin that provide up to +7 natural enhancement armor bonus; Lesser concealment, as wizard blur spell; inertia barrier, a weaker stone skin with unlimited absorption amount; Psionic Keen edge, one spell replace one very useful feat for psychic warrior only; Dispelling Buffer as other classes; Greater Psionic Eye Personal and Greater Omnidirectional Eye Personal that psionicist only access as combat buff; and mind blank that changed to level 6 for psychic warrior to access it.

That's just once per rest buff, there's also biofeedback for dr/-,expansion for enlarge more than one category(Psychic warrior only), precognition for rare insight armor bonus, Adrenaline Rush for attack bonus, Psionic Pounce for a weaker version of wade in that no class above access(and only for psychic warrior, not psionicist), Evade Burst for evasion, Energy Adaptation for all energy absorption rather than one of the five elements, oakbody as level 5 power that druid access as level 8 spell, and form of doom that give 4 additional natural weapon attack(psychic warrior only). Also some class feat that change some power from standard action to move action.

Basically, Psychic warrior use a psionicist power list that remove most (useless to psychic warrior) damage power and add some very useful buff power, reduce some power's level so that psychic warrior can access it within level 6 power, and/or extend some power to whole day. The greatest weakness of psionicist is it's power does not improve as manifest level grow and need more pp to improve, thus they burn up their pp reservoir much faster than other classes. But for psychic warrior in this game, all they need is burn a large chunk of their pp after rest, and in combat only manifest power when needed. The only weakness, been mid bab, can be alleviated by the belt mention before. Any feat require 16+bab is still out of reach, but that's only a small price.

So after the analysis, I can safely say that Psychic warrior must be dev's most favorite child :twisted: , and Psychic warrior >>magic knight > storm warrior>champion
Liberator
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Re: Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrio

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:09 pm

Thank you everyone for the interesting read!!

good fortune(contingent heal sadly out of champion's reach as level 8 spell)
That gave me the idea of a new Champion feat that will allow him to cast Good Fortune as a level-7 spell.

I like the Champion. However, it's true that a melee-focused Cleric could also do the job. Champions will always be compared to both Paladins and melee-focused Clerics.

force screen, an until rest version of force shield that provide armor similar to tower shield up to +4 enchantment( and only for psychic warrior- psionicist version of force screen is combat only spell)
Normally, Force Screen is a combat-only power even for the Psychic Warrior.

The Bard has unique dialogue skills, unique song effects, and it's the only class that can use instruments by placing them on the body slot for bracers. So, can't be easily compared to any of the others.

An upgrade is planned for the Mage Knight. Cheers! Best regards 8-)
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrio

Postby Liberator » Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:34 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:Thank you everyone for the interesting read!!

good fortune(contingent heal sadly out of champion's reach as level 8 spell)
That gave me the idea of a new Champion feat that will allow him to cast Good Fortune as a level-7 spell.

I like the Champion. However, it's true that a melee-focused Cleric could also do the job. Champions will always be compared to both Paladins and melee-focused Clerics.

force screen, an until rest version of force shield that provide armor similar to tower shield up to +4 enchantment( and only for psychic warrior- psionicist version of force screen is combat only spell)
Normally, Force Screen is a combat-only power even for the Psychic Warrior.

The Bard has unique dialogue skills, unique song effects, and it's the only class that can use instruments by placing them on the body slot for bracers. So, can't be easily compared to any of the others.
An upgrade is planned for the Mage Knight. Cheers! Best regards 8-)


Then it is a typo in this site's database, as you can see from my save, I did't use a psychic warrior thus didn't check it in game-_-

Bard's unique skills and tricks seem interesting, so is the instruments as the game really lack good bracer. And some of their uses remind me of Bard's tale. But the bard's songs seems weaker than their DND/SRD counterpart other than activate as free action while other classes got their class ability buffed. Bard's spells useful but lack flexibility, and cost daily performance limit which means bard have fewer resource than other classes, especially in late games
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Re: Champion vs Mage Knight / Storm Warrior / Psychic Warrio

Postby BlueSalamander » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:00 pm

Thank you Liberator.

Yes, there is a typo in the webpage https://www.heroicfantasygames.com/FWE/Pages/FWE_Psychic_Warrior.htm. I will fix that.

Bard's unique skills and tricks seem interesting, so is the instruments as the game really lack good bracer. And some of their uses remind me of Bard's tale. But the bard's songs seems weaker than their DND/SRD counterpart other than activate as free action while other classes got their class ability buffed. Bard's spells useful but lack flexibility, and cost daily performance limit which means bard have fewer resource than other classes, especially in late games
True. It's a matter of preference.

Cheers! Best regards 8-)
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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